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6:20 AM
@Morwenn Happy to report that today now that I've had a chance to test it, your apply_from_array does indeed work as advertised! You've definitely put things several steps closer, as now I can do the extension as being called from (Value x, Value y) for instance. But given (DerivedFromValue x, DerivedFromValue y) where x and y have no default constructors clearly can't be driven by an array. Which is to say that my question overlooked that what I really did need was tuples, I think.
But I think you did indeed answer that question in a technical sense; array in, parameters to call out. Quite nice.
It really isn't the end of the world if you don't get subtyped arguments and everything is a value and it puts it on you to cast to the subtype. But being this close certainly makes it seem that some bridge may be built from NATIVEVALUE[] to a tuple in which each typed item in the argument list may be initialized from NATIVEVALUE*, and have the typing done for you.
@Vexerciser I can't help but think of Discotizer. Com...puterize you... :-) See our FAQ on matters like "how to get points" and such: rebolsource.net/go/chat-faq
Man, that song is still great. It's hilarious and groovy at the same time.
 
 
3 hours later…
9:30 AM
@HostileFork Glad to hear that it didn't completely miss the point. I'm not surprised that it doesn't work as expected for subtypes since value semantics don't play well with subtypes (you can't have a type[] filled with subtypes).
 
9:46 AM
@Morwenn I am confident your answer will be useful to someone looking for that, and in fact, I find it seems you and a few others are on the frontier of these questions...
Which on the one hand I get to thinking "Red will have the greatest binding ever" but then I realize, well, once the cat is out of the bag anyone can do it. So...
 
^^"
 
One should stick to advocating for the actual core principles.
 
I tried to compile Rebol again yesterday, but be it with the makefile or the bat file, I had errors. I tried to tweak some things, but in the end, it still didn't work.
 
@Morwenn Did you by chance watch "What is Red". I know it's just a talk, and now it's getting long in the tooth, but I think it is compelling.
@Morwenn So you mean, regardless of rencpp you can't build rebol? :-/
That's strange.
What's happening?
 
@HostileFork No, I generally don't watch talks. Talks make me sleep, I prefere to read.
 
9:50 AM
@Morwenn Aw. But I edited it. I edited it so you would not sleep. I went to film school, really, I did.
 
@HostileFork Yeah, regardless of rencpp. I've got a linker error somewhere.
 
@Morwenn Well... what error?
 
> cannot open file ws2_32.lib
 
@Morwenn So you say you're using Code::Blocks, sorry--not a windows person--but IIRC that would be MinGW?
 
@HostileFork Sorry for that, but it's a problem with me. I hardly ever watch videos anyway when they last longer than ten minutes :/
 
9:52 AM
@Morwenn Then just watch the first 10. I frontloaded.
 
@HostileFork That error occurs when I try to run the .bat file to create a VS project. It does ot depend on Code::Blocks/MinGW.
 
@Morwenn Note in the schematic I didn't edit him as much toward the end, because I assumed by the end you were either in or out. :-) Hence all the cuts in the front.
 
Eh, that's subtle :)
 
Doubt not my sincerity!
Someone star that --^
@Morwenn Well, let's get your Rebol built. It should "just work (tm)"
As you saw, I built it for Haiku. If it builds on Haiku, you should certainly be able to build it on windows. Portability is the raison d'etre.
It's banal bend over backwards ANSI-C, to build on Amiga computers and such
 
But Windows is generally considered a milestone when you're trying to build something, on not "just another OS" :p
 
9:58 AM
@Morwenn Er, we have builds on Windows: rebolsource.net
The question is not does it build on Windows, it's why can't you build it on windows.
 
What can't I just create a project with my IDE, import the source files, compile and have it work? ._____.
 
@Morwenn There is a Cmake-based build which does create IDE projects, you need to talk to @earl about that, but minus that, it's plain old make. Which means you need a system that supports... plain old make. Cygwin or VMWARE linux or whatever.
A Visual C++ project has been made, there was a recent question about "how do I use VC to build", it was an SO question actually
 
If I try to use the Makefile, it seems that it assumes that I'm not using Windows. But even manually setting TO_WIN32 isn't enough.
Even though I love C++, I doubt anybody loves the configuration/compilation/linking required to use many tools...
 
@Morwenn Well you came to the right place, as I've tried to explain, it's about simple things being kept simple.
@Morwenn Well I wouldn't be doing my job if I didn't try and ask what you're using. Compiler version, command line, etc. Pretend you're asking a stackoverflow question and don't want people to crucify you. :-)
 
@HostileFork I tried two things: running vcbuilt.bat from the Windows command line, which probably uses the MSVC compiler and linker. But it ends with a linker error.
On the other hand, I tried to use a plain old GNU make to build the Makefile, but I keep getting problems since it tries to compile it as if I was using a POSIX system.
I guess it could work with Cygwin, but since I only have MinGW installed on my computer, things like #include <sys/wait.h> simply don't work.
 
10:10 AM
3
Q: How to build Rebol 3 in MSVC

MemoirsofSmeagolI am trying to get Rebol 3 to compile in Microsoft Visual Studio 2013, but so far I have been unsuccessful. I am using a Git repo for my source which does not come with a solution. I have tried creating a solution and manually importing all of the code files, but that does not work. I really d...

I'm sorry, Windows is just off my radar in general. :-/
You might as well be asking Linus Torvalds the question.
i know it's out there, I know people use it, I don't.
 
I tried MSVC because, well, I try things, but I would really like to build it for MinGW instead - I would rather use a good not so old GCC.
 
Well, so you just have that linker error?
The winsock thing?
I mean, if you're on windows and want sockets, you need the socket library. So it goes.
>> copy/part to-string read hostilefork.com 128
>> print "hey, RebolBot, you awake?"
 
Well, I've got that linker error, but it's to build for MSVC anyway. You said there was a CMake out there to build REBOL?
 
@johnk RebolBot is sleeping on the job. :-/
@Morwenn Yes, @earl made one: github.com/earl/r3/tree/wip-cmake
My copy paste isn't working, I have to type every link manually. I'm unsure why. I will restart the machine and "hope that fixes it". Oh, what a lamer I am.
My sysadmin/IT security friend refuses to reboot his solaris system, ever.
It's never the answer to any problem.
"Rebooting is never the answer, unless there's a bug in solaris, in which case, report the bug in solaris"
Unfortunately I live in userland
Some text I typed Some text I typed and copied
Okay, fixed.
@Morwenn I totally support you building Rebol, and I am saddened by you having trouble, for me it has been the easiest thing to build ever... ANSI C limited dependencies that's part of the whole appeal
 
@HostileFork That's the problem with using platform-specific libraries instead of letting another library handle the task :p
 
10:24 AM
@Morwenn Well, I have an XP VM with an old VC and I'm willing to retrace your steps. You are anti-video but I'll follow your steps and hit your wall, as anti-windows as I am... of course that might introduce some Win 8.1 vs. XP variations, but there's pretty strong compatibility in this space
I mean, Carl refuses to put any modern anything in. It's ANSI C all the way
 
I am trying to build it for MinGW actually. Mostly because even if it built with MSVC, I still don't like it.
 
@Morwenn I like your style.
@Veritas What's a Microsoft? — HostileFork Oct 13 at 1:30
 
@HostileFork Building Solarus (a C++ Zelda Engine) was already Hell because of this. The engine relied on a dozen libraries xD
And the editor relies on the same libraries + Qt.
 
@Morwenn If I ever doubted your geek cred, you just undid any doubt.
 
@HostileFork Well, there are areas where I am less obsessive :p
 
10:30 AM
@Morwenn My chosen successor to run the austin C++ group just gave a talk on Dreamcast homebrewing
Under my crosswired judgment, that means, I chose wisely.
 
@HostileFork Haha, yeah :D
 
That's actually a funny story, about the exploit.
But even funnier is people still messing with Dreamcasts.
 
That's true. I hardly ever heard of it these years.
 
@Morwenn I am the patron saint of lost causes, you might not know. Maybe I'm just lost in alternate universes where good ideas won... it draws me to all this old stuff... like these funny little archival videos of things like the BeOS people trying to talk to you about Be Inc. yeah, you hate videos, but, these guys have a sort of contagious delusion... youtube.com/watch?v=ggCODBIfWKY
I knew people who bought BeBoxes
(I didn't, I worked for Microsoft Research, I told them they were about to be wiped out)
The wild card I couldn't have expected, and in fact that Microsoft didn't expect, was that their investment in reviving Apple would bring it back to life and they'd bring NextStep with them
 
I never even heard of BeBoxes.
 
10:36 AM
So funny, these iPhone developers with NSString not knowing what NS is
@Morwenn Never seen one? They actually had hardware interfaces, their extension ports were breadboards, it was totally maker-faire
Funny machines
 
@HostileFork Considering I never heard of it, the chances I saw one are quite low. From your photo, I think that I can assert that I've never seen one.
1995... Come on, I wasn't even 4 years old :o
 
@Morwenn Well you know what Haiku is right?
 
@HostileFork Is it a micro OS?
 
@Morwenn Awww... you don't like video so I can only tell you old man stories. But funny ones. Here, this is text. blog.hostilefork.com/machine-language-commodore-64-128
 
@HostileFork (That other project that does not advance).
 
10:42 AM
When I see your blog, I feel like the things described in it are centuries old ç_ç
 
@iArnold Yes, you did have what I called a "kerfuffle" with them, but I think, glass houses and stone throwing shouldn't be mixed up.
@Morwenn Starring that. I feel the same way.
Oddly, I don't look that old.
I've seen some of my high school friends who are also 40 and they... well... they look old.
@Morwenn How cool for you though, being young and growing up in an era of "different expectations". Do you like StackOverflow etc. as a concept?
What I like, is that, I remember what it was like to have a question and "not know"
 
@HostileFork I realize that the software development I know is really different than it was a few decades before. I like how it is now.
 
And if you didn't know, you just kind of asked the 3 people around you, and if all 3 of those people didn't know, you didn't know.
@Morwenn What I like, in theory, is this grand nature of the sharing of information, where "all of us is smarter than one of us". It's a fantastic idea. What depresses me, and if you look in the margins, you will find me in duel-to-the-death arguments with people with X00k rep, where they are giving the beat down to some kid who doesn't know how to ask a question according to "the rules"
 
Yeah. Programming was probably really hard back then. You couldn't even tell whether the fault came from you or from your tools.
 
@Morwenn You knew nothing.
Anyway, I try, as best I can with what living fiber I have to empathize and see those kids in India or wherever as being like me.
Someone who wants to learn, and might not know how to ask.
 
10:48 AM
@HostileFork With huge communities come stricter rules if you want to keep controlling things. But I have to agree that some people are not nice when enforcing them.
 
And the self-righteous basement-dwelling evil versions of me, are quick to decide their interests in curation exceed the interests of building an ever-growing community of knowledge.
Curation is important, and feedback to spammers is important, but...
I think there's something more important, and maybe it's kind of Disney-ish of me to say it, but I think it's about dreams, and we keep getting all these great tools... it would be nice to see them applied well.
 
We ares striving not to be too evil on Code Review, but that's not always easy :/
 
Well, I am dragging my feet on our debate about the idea of Code Review answers linking the version and the code upgrading
Which, to me, is what would make that more useful
But of course, StackExchange wasn't designed for that purpose in the first place.
So it's already dicey.
Your reaction was putting Q&A rules on code review, when the real angle of code review is refinement.
 
There has been debates on Code Review on how to deal with iterative reviews.
What we encourage is to write follow-up questions with the updated code.
 
I think that the code being reviewed should improve, and each answer should be linked to the version it addresses, but that subverts the "Q&A" model. You mentioned the preservation of the archive so people could follow the discussion... but to me... that's less important than upgrading the code and having each new challenger challenge the hardened code.
Of course you go "well where is the recognition", "who is the top answerer", "where are the points" but I see those as being tangents to the objective.
The objective is "remove all bugs and make it perfect" (in my system of thinking)
 
10:56 AM
The problem is that many reviews are not compatible and lead to different code. Therefore, there isn't always a "most refined" or "best" version, but several versions with good ideas.
Different kinds of perfection.
 
That's fine, but can't that be addressed with links to versions upon which you are commenting?
 
@Morwenn hi
 
If the code absorbs an obvious correction, shouldn't new reviewers not be paying that second cost of addressing the obvious fix?
 
@HostileFork Well, the thing is that I don't care that much about how it's done. The current system works and I apply the rules. If you want to take this discussion further, as I said, you should bring it to Code Review Meta :p
@Pans Hi :)
 
@Morwenn Well, I was taking it to you first. :-)
 
10:59 AM
@HostileFork I am probably not the best one to talk about this. I generally let other people handle "how the community works" and I just contribute by reviewing code :p
 
I'm notoriously vocal, anti-establishment, I argue with high-rep people, I argue with moderators, I get on StackOverflow's case for spending more time making hats than actually ever implementing any plans anyone puts out there... I don't want them to get lazy but they are being lazy
I suppose they say "well, more hats, and, uh... y'know, I guess the evil people from the community berating kids asking questions and scaring them away do more good than harm but we don't know, oh we're busy with our jars of money so I dunno"
I hold Joel to a bit of a higher standard
Jeff, sigh. Oh, you can't trust anyone. Him and his automated cat feeders and poorly conceived BBS
The tolls money takes on people.
 
Well. Programming is one thing, sociology is another thing :/
 
@Morwenn It all ties together in the end, how you live your life is what you are, companies are made of people; I don't buy this idea that it gets so big that a company is a new thing no one takes responsibility for. Of course that's the fashion now, to just stand back and go "well it wasn't me, it was the company"
Not buying it. StackOverflow may have a bit of a life of its own, but there is still a definable chain of command.
Someone tomorrow could pull the plug and make it a rickroll video
That someone, whoever they are, is authority.
If they can do it and no one can stop them, they are in charge.
 
True.
 
I won't listen to any absolution of authority or "beyond our control" because control is in the hands of whoever that is.
I could tell you about the plumbers I'm dealing with now, and man
These guys...
If there's any way they can claim an issue is "because the house is old" or "it was the previous guy" they'll say it.
I am an engineer of... let us say... high caliber.
I can disprove any crap they say with simple testing. I feel sorry for little old ladies who are beholden to these charlatans without the mental map to test them and show what corrupt, foolish, bad people they are.
I don't mind them being not bright.
That's ok.
 
11:09 AM
Blaming it on the previous guy is always easy. Especially when he's not there anymore.
 
I have trouble following everything you say though.
 
@Morwenn Ah, if you want a harder time, it can be had. :-)
 
@HostileFork I once had to wrok with really well-written code. It wasn't documented, but it didn't need documentation, you could read it like it was natural.
 
@Morwenn I do think, generally, that the sources for Qt--say what you will about them-- are at least very easy to follow. Well documented.
I have been a strong supporter of "death to GTK"
Even if you question the merits of Qt, GTK has like... none. I can't think of anything nice to say about it.
 
11:13 AM
I would like a "modern C++ GUI framework", but that does not exist.
So Qt really is fine whatsoever.
 
Well, it's the least of the evils
 
I only wish they didn't have to add moc to make the build phase even more complicated.
 
They still have this "we are going to compete with Java" thing going on, they are trying to be a platform, but honestly, it works rather well
Well they haven't yet completely signed off on C++11
They support some features, grudgingly, it seems
 
Nor on C++98. They have their own standard library and don't almost don't use the standard one.
 
But they still are trying to support their mobile customers on weird platforms, what was it, Meego?
Some weird issues drive their choices still.
 
11:15 AM
The new connect syntax is more modern and plays well with lambdas. That's already a great improvement.
 
Yup, much nicer
@Morwenn And catches more at compile time, I wrote an entry about the old messed up way: blog.hostilefork.com/qt-essential-noisy-debug-hook
The most irritating bit being that without that hook, if you had a bad connect, it wouldn't mention it in any way you'd even notice...
 
Oh, I heard that they "deprecated" their own algorithm library and now advise to use <algorithm>.
 
Good
 
But seriously, Qt invented signals/slots, but I would rather use Boost.Signals2.
 
@Morwenn They didn't invent signals and slots. :-) Time goes back a bit earlier than that!
 
11:19 AM
They are modern, thread-safe, don't need your objects to derive from QObject and don't need moc.
@HostileFork I thought they were the first ones to use this version of the observer pattern.
 
In C++ perhaps but bear in mind that many computer science concepts trace wayback
It's not necessarily about being first, perhaps "first to popularize"
 
I will blame my wrong uderstanding of history on Wikipedia then.
 
@Morwenn As you may have observed, I've been around a while. "Invention as a Social Process". Good points.
 
@HostileFork Where would you rank wxWidgets?
 
@WiseGenius Hate it
wxWidgets was the result of a particular line of thinking
The guy who made wxWidgets said "hey, here I have a program written to Win32 API"
 
11:22 AM
@WiseGenius "Let's use C++, except we won't use C++ features".
 
And then, he said, "Hmmm... well... I don't want to rewrite this program written to Win32 API. How will I make this program run on a mac, or linux?"
 
wxPython and PyQt are better integrated in the language/standard library than their C++ counterparts.
 
And, minus any inventive thinking, he proceeded to create a lowest-common-denominator frightening non-abstraction that was once called wxWindows
But due to maybe some trademark worries or something in his mind, he changed to call it wxWidgets, which is probably the only name you kids know it under
 
"templates are bad, namespaces are... well, I don't know, let's not use them, virtual inheritance is bas, standard library is bad..."
 
Anyway, it sucked. If you want to run a windows program on your mac or linux box, don't rewrite it, use a VM
Don't generate crap-ass wxWidgets code
 
11:25 AM
@HostileFork The name wxWindows is still used enough for me to know it.
 
@Morwenn I thought the name change was about 10 years ago
Maybe not that long
8?
 
@HostileFork Yeah. The C standard changed 15 years ago and people still use C89.
 
@WiseGenius Anyway, destroy any and all wxAnything, it's awful, emulators. Remember my talk: Virtualization and the Integrated Circuit
 
I'm being both sarcastic and hungry. I'll take my leave. See you later!
(Oh, and I couldn't get the makefile generated by cmake to build REBOL either.)
 
@Morwenn Let's get Rebol built for you because, actually, that's what we kind of sit here and grok and chew on... so come back with your errors
@Morwenn It's kind of our hobby in this room
 
11:28 AM
xD
 
Come back, see you then, I'm still unpacking that tuple in... the back of my mind
When I'm not cooking some food to eat
 
There was a long debate about what to change the name to, but I can't seem to find it just now:
https://www.wxwidgets.org/about/name-change/
 
@WiseGenius My sketchy background working for Microsoft feels all the more sketchy whenever I read this nonsense.
 
11:45 AM
@HostileFork Hmm. Just read through this. Isn't this sort of the opposite direction to a solution Red will be providing?
 
11:55 AM
@HostileFork I'm still trying to understand which is the main cause of your “hatred” of wxWidgets. Is it that it's trying to fit a Windows peg into the hole of other OSes, or is it that it's trying to make one code fit all in general? Or is it something else?
 
@WiseGenius Hatred is a strong, but applicable term.
4
A: Modeless, parentless wxDialog still always above wxFrame window in z-order?

HostileForkI don't use wxWidgets or Gtk (long live Qt / KDE!) But...a cursory look at the source for the wxWidgets generic dialog code reveals a mention of wxSTAY_ON_TOP in wxDialogStyle: http://trac.wxwidgets.org/browser/wxWidgets/trunk/src/common/dlgcmn.cpp#L57 The documentation states that wxDEFAULT_D...

@WiseGenius It solves one problem; "I have some code to the old win32 API, I wish this built on mac and linux"
It does not embrace any Modern C++ philosophy
And the best way to achieve its purpose is not to make even uglier code, but rather, to run your ugly code in an emulator.
It represents no vision and nothing of value.
There are angles of questioning and attack on Qt's worldview too, for sure.
But wxWhatever is a basement hack of "please let it die" proportions, not saying the author is a bad person, but the project is totally misdirected in its existence in the age of virtual machines
Now, if virtual machines didn't exist, I might have a different perspective and say "well, if X and Y and Z then wxWidgets is a great choice"....
 
@HostileFork Personally, I like the idea of being able to write the same code, with different OSs in mind and have it work using their native widgets. That idea is it's main appeal to me.
@HostileFork Then why Qt?
 
12:11 PM
@WiseGenius Qt is C++ first, and they don't bow to a reinterpretation of WinApi. Construct a window and it appears, there's not a "make window abstractly" and then a "oh, really make it" method. It gets things right.
And they did, for better or worse, take total control of the draw space... they draw the widgets in a Rebol way... although they now delegate to theming APIs
OSes are getting a bit more willing--for apps that want to grab the window as a bitmap buffer and paint everything inside--to give those apps some hooks to draw native looks
Qt is based on "we paint everything" like Rebol is, but it does call out to those (modernly available) hooks to look more native. On older OSes without the hooks, it fakes it.
 
@HostileFork I was introduced to it late and missed that ugly era.
 
@WiseGenius Well wxWidgets never tried to take control of anything, it just grafted and mapped everything through an API that was a clone of WinApi and tried to find the closest possible mapping it could... and... it's junk. If that's what you want, write to WinAPI and run Wine or somesuch
Though VM'ing anything that's a win app if you care about win apps--and I don't--seems better
Every 24 or so hours this happens, some kind of bio shutdown (I'll be back assuming it starts back up)
But wxWidgets does suck. :-)
 
12:28 PM
My C++ phase was short lived compared to my other language phases because it was abruptly interrupted when I discovered Red.
I don't feel I got to give C++ as thorough a ride as other languages.
So my experience with Qt and wxWidgets was relatively short lived (although I had used wxPython a little before that).
I started with Qt, and switched to wxWidgets. IIRC, it was because I didn't like the license for static linking, and there may have been some points here:
https://wiki.wxwidgets.org/WxWidgets_Compared_To_Other_Toolkits#Qt
Since playing with Rebol, I've hardly touched C++.
So since I was in the middle of trying out wxWidgets after switching from Qt, when I abandoned all for Rebol, I'm still curious about what I should have used.
How do you think Red should do it?
 
12:48 PM
“REBOL's blend of capability, compact size, ease of use, cross-platform functionality, and variety of interpreter platforms enable it to gracefully replace many common tools such as Java, Python, Visual Basic, C, C++, PHP, Perl, Ruby, Javascript, toolkits such as wxWidgets, graphic/multimedia platforms such as Flash, DBMSs such as Access, MySQL, and SQLite, a variety of system utilities, and more, all with one simple paradigm.”
2
Honestly, I think this is overselling Rebol a bit. It doesn't replace all those tools... yet. But it could! And Red especially could!
 
1:07 PM
@HostileFork So let me see if I understand you. I was attracted to wxWidgets because I thought it used native widgets while Qt faked it. But you're saying that Qt doesn't completely fake it anymore (which I've just read elsewhere too), and that the main problem with wxWidgets is that it tries to squeeze those native widgets into a WinAPI paradigm? Is that even close?
I suppose after using Qt, I must have just assumed that wxWidgets would be just as good but adding the advantages I had read. :(
 
@Morwenn Building Rebol on Windows: with MinGW and MSYS, that should be:
3
Copy an existing Rebol binary (e.g. from rebolsource.net) into the make/ subfolder and name it r3-make.exe.
Then:
make make OS_ID=0.3.1
make prep
make r3.exe
 
Ok for the first step.
Hum, I'll try that.
Huh, I have to leave for 5~10 minutes first.
 
No worries, see you later.
 
1:27 PM
@earl First thing: it needs to be r3-make instead of r3-make.exe.
 
@Morwenn Are you running through an MSYS shell?
 
@earl Er, now you say it, no. I forgot that you mentioned MSYS.
 
@Morwenn :)
 
It would be great to accept either one :p
 
Certainly. If only Windows wasn't so picky :)
 
1:29 PM
Yeah, right.
So, it seems that it built smoothly.
 
Got an r3.exe as result?
 
Yep.
 
Then you should be all set.
 
Next step, build @HostileFork's rencpp.
 
For Windows, that'll need quite a few adaptations in his CMakeLists.txt, I think.
 
1:32 PM
@earl Thanks for the help. Thanks to you it only took me minutes instead of hours of not understanding what's going on :)
 
At the very least:
Change that to TO_WIN32.
@Morwenn You're very welcome.
 
@earl Haha, I will :D
There is an undefined identifier REBCPP in the source. I don't know what it is supposed to be.
 
Hmm, I think I now remember Fork saying that rencpp currently doesn't build?
(Guessing, though, that it should be RENCPP, a left-over from the renaming action.)
 
It's supposed to be the type used for the keys in an std::unordered_map named table.
But table is probably not the most meaningful name to guess things.
Well, I have to leave either way. Once again, see you later :)
And thanks again for the help.
 
See you!
 
 
6 hours later…
7:25 PM
@Morwenn Ah cool that you're buliding it... yes, you will need a small patch to Rebol.
The issue you will see in my tinkering is that if C++ is to generate a function stub to call, as a C function, it needs a way of getting from that stub to the C++ std::function
Which means that an args array of just REBVAL[] isn't enough. You need a key to find the function. A sort of "self" pointer to the function object being called. Which Rebol has in its hand, it just doesn't give its own native definitions that...they know "who they are" because they're all handwritten.
I added REBCPP as a version of function dispatch that passes in the function-valued REBVAL being sent in as a first argument. That's what it looks up in that static table.
I do not actually believe that one needs a separate type for this
Function dispatch already uses the EXT bits in the header.
 
Hello People!
2
I was stolen a bit by the evil Clojure community... :)
Just released an example of some of the work I did: https://github.com/exicon/homepage
 
7:41 PM
@Morwenn The project still won't build, I mentioned I was giving it to you in the broken experimental state for insight purposes. But you'll have the necessary define if you grab these deltas: RENCPP changes so Morwenn can experiment
@onetom Evil indeed, they stole you completely.
Dec 14 at 23:30, by kealist
Hello from Hong Kong
Still in Hong Kong?
 
@onetom Welcome back!
 
7:57 PM
@HostileFork but at the same time I also have a 2 months old daughter which is also a deterring factor :)
Yeah, I'm still in Hong Kong! Is @kealist still in HK?
 
@onetom You need to be teaching her Rebol and Red, get her online, get her started...
@onetom Hopefully he'll see that msg, he didn't say how long he'd be there
7 hours ago, by WiseGenius
I suppose after using Qt, I must have just assumed that wxWidgets would be just as good but adding the advantages I had read. :(
@WiseGenius No, wxWidgets is terrible. Program straight to the Win32 API and then distribute your app with a VirtualBox running ReactOS (Or let people use WINE)
That is better than writing C++ code to wxWidgets.
Qt has actual value, a strong Unicode story such that QString is light-years better than std::string, and if you just throw out all their collection classes and use the standard library you should be good.
(Although I make heavy use of QSharedDataPtr in Thinker-Qt, which I've found to be an interesting concept, yet the heavy conclusion after looking at most of my applications for it is "hm, I should have written that in Haskell")
 
8:19 PM
@Morwenn Oops, that branch was off of a bugfix, I wasn't on master (:-/) Here's the real more minimal RENCPP changes for Morwenn to experiment with
Protip: when using commands like git reset make sure you're in the right directory
Protip: That also applies to other command-line tools, like rm -rf
 
8:42 PM
@Remus Wearing the spock ears I see.
 
Aye @HostileFork that's how I roll
 
>> print {"So, @remus..." asked the {bot}... "know any Rebol or Red?"}
Okay, bot down. @johnk What's up with that?
 
#botfail
 
I will pretend to be the bot by typing that in my console.
 
haha
 
8:45 PM
"So, @remus..." asked the {bot}... "know any Rebol or Red?"
 
candidly - nope lol
 
lol is our logo
 
amazing
 
Honestly, not having the bot working sucks for demos.
I could ask for access but that would just be more responsibility
21
Q: RebolBot - a chat bot for the chat rooms

Graham Chiu RebolBot is a chat bot with a natural English dialect interface, specifically targeting the StackOverflow chat rooms. Yet it has a modular design, can post tweets to Twitter, and could be modified with only a little effort to work with other chat systems. An instance of the bot hangs out...

 
ha, that's pretty neat!
 
8:48 PM
It would be if it were working. :-/ Usually it does. It's hosted on DigitalOcean now
@remus If you have a moment, you might look at our "little" agenda here: red-lang.org/p/contributions.html
 
I've actually cough red cough that before
 
@remus You should watch the video too. I took many hours editing Nenad down. The timeline shows the effort. I linked a picture of that just the other day.
I was making the point that I edited him down way more in the beginning and then sort of let him ramble more at the end
Red is new but still very cool. Rebol and Red remain oddballs of their era, zero install full stack systems...
In a world of sudo apt-get and 50MB of dependencies, it's interesting anyone would still care about not building a language as a Rube Goldberg machine
I don't care about it because space is expensive; clearly it is not
 
9:03 PM
@HostileFork @Morwenn curl https://github.com/hostilefork/rebol/compare/rencpp.patch | patch -p1 (in the Rebol working directory)
 
@earl Fancy...
@earl I sent you a Gchat, but I do not actually think a new type is necessary here, and as I've mentioned, I think closure and function should be collapsed into a dispatch in the EXT bits... it already uses EXT bits to dispatch anyway.
It was just the shortest path to get the information needed for the test
 
super cool! Will check it out for sure
 
@remus Why spend so much time on esoteric languages? Because...
 
 
1 hour later…
10:33 PM
Well, despite it being shared in an incomplete state, earl went and built the binding anyway.
 
Evil me!
:)
 
So cat is more or less out of the bag at this point, if anyone wants to go chime in on the examples, prior to a more formal announcement
Obviously these are just scrappy tests, ones I came up with to try and think through what I thought the binding should look like, not properly comprehensive
 
sooo, what's that? :-)
From the last two days, I thought HostileFork is talking about general C++ binding ... now I can see REN mentioned. Was not here, when REN was discussed - is that the json-like Rebol interface to the outer world?
 
@pekr Those examples are C++ calling Rebol, and I've figured out how to make Rebol call C++, but what @Morwenn and I have been hammering through is getting the latter to be this pretty
@pekr Well, I am continuing to believe that REN is a good name (human/person in Chinese, refinement/focus in Japanese) for data that is not intended to be executable under Rebol or Red but uses the format. So a file will end as .ren if it is not having a Rebol [] or Red [] header
 
Interesting stuff, just beyond my capacity of usage. Just to understand it better (if that is possible with me :-), Cyphre used AGG together with Rebol. Would your bridge help him, if present in the past?
REN is definitely a good name. What does it stands for, btw? :-) Rebol E N?
 
10:40 PM
@pekr REadable Notation
It was @rebolek and Gregg Irwin who were mostly behind that IIRC
To try and pull out the "JSON-like" bit of the story
And be a better JSON than JSON, with a better name too :-)
 
Cool then :-)
 
@pekr This can be pretty much a full and better replacement for all prior extension mechanisms, with one caveat. Because the functions are generated through shims, there will be one added function call per function.
We can study how far that can be pushed though, in terms of mitigating any performance effect.
 
So, not sure how Cyphre managed to link C++ based AGG into Rebol (most probably writing some functions in C to wrap the code), is that a general mechanism, how to use outer C++ stuff? E.g. VLC player is C++ too ...
 
It certainly is better than the RL_ API
Well, C and C++ code can be linked if you use the extern "C" label
So if you need to run some C++ code, and you want to be called from C, all you do is somewhere bottom out and hand back a function that's labeled as extern "C"
But that is a manual process; what I'm describing here is general and streamlined
Assuming of course we get it all hammered out the way I want it, and that's why @Morwenn and I have been talking about this deferred apply stuff
But, we've already seen almost but not quite happen, which is suggesting that nailing it might be technically possible.
@pekr for some grounding, compare to this sort of thing from a-lib.c
What it boils down to is that, Carl did not intend for Rebol guts to be exposed. For instance, each datatype has a number...but that number is in an enum that is autogenerated by scripts and subject to change. He never intended any program that used Rebol to speak in terms of Rebol's internal implementation
But, the library he exposed is anemic and a grab bag of "just some things he thought of that day"
The C++ binding, by contrast, is something you would rebuild if Rebol changed
This is the general concept Doc had as well; that if you link against Red, you aren't calling red.exe through some dynamic hook
You statically link a version of a red library into your app
I did actually poke around and learn you can call an .EXE as if it were a DLL
Linux has a parallel to this also; it's possible to build executables that act as dynamic libraries
Doc didn't like the sound of that, though. I found it interesting, myself.
If it's one tool to rule them all, why not have the one installation providing the hooks? :-)
@earl --^ is that too crazy-sounding to you, too?
 
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