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2:47 AM
@Respectech I don't think that would work. Perhaps looking through the page source of colellachiara.com/soft/topaz/try-topaz.html might provide some insight.
 
 
3 hours later…
5:21 AM
@earl You said your initial impression of #2178 was positive and you needed to mull it over for a while.
 
5:37 AM
In discussions with DocKimbel he sees this as tied in with why (some stuff)/foo/bar => #[path! [(some stuff) /foo /bar]] while foo/(some stuff)/bar => #[path! [foo (some stuff) bar]]
He says the parsing law is a path! in Rebol starts with a word!
He likes the law, and doesn't see any reason to change it. Whereas I look at the puzzling results and ask "if I wanted #[path! [(some stuff) /foo /bar] why didn't I write (some stuff) /foo /bar with the spaces?"
One concern he mentioned is what it would do to FILE!, and that's exactly what #2178 answers. FILE! would just head up a path.
One note that I may not have outlined is that terminal paths become legal in this model. So foo/ is #[path! [foo]]. I don't see any reason for this to be a legal evaluation in general, like if foo is a string or an object or something of that type. An error would be fine.
Or no error, I guess, but I tend to say "error unless you have a good reason"
One feature that seems pretty exciting to me is that all those split-path things could go away if you were working with source.
@RebolBot
obj: object [bar: "bartext"]
o: quote obj/bar
probe o
probe do o
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
obj/bar
obj/bar
== obj/bar
 
Hmm?
@RebolBot
obj: object [bar: "bartext"]
o: quote obj/bar
probe o
probe reduce o
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
obj/bar
obj/bar
== obj/bar
 
I seem to remember this being something I complained about before.
@RebolBot
obj: object [bar: "bartext"]
o: quote obj/bar
probe o
probe first reduce [o]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
obj/bar
obj/bar
== obj/bar
 
5:48 AM
@RebolBot
obj: object [bar: "bartext"]
o: quote obj/bar
probe o
probe first reduce reduce [o]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
obj/bar
"bartext"
== "bartext"
 
Yes, I did complain about this. DO or REDUCE of a PATH! should evaluate it.
Imagining that it did, then you could build filenames up out of components as a PATH! and just reduce to get a FILE! But you'd have to quote them to suppress the evaluation. Otherwise p: %foo/(some stuff)/bar.txt would evaluate in the moment...which may be what you want. Lit-path syntax could support p: '%foo/(some stuff)/bar.txt
Which you would use if your intention was to do work on the path, and for instance use last p to get the final path element. Because once it becomes a FILE!, it's a string.
Anyway, I hadn't realized that the paren! issue was tied into the file! issue until he stated his opinion that a path (which is not programmatically created, or created via construction syntax) must always start with a word!
So if any changes are to be considered, a value proposition must be argued as to why PATH! in the parser be allowed to start with non-words.
@RebolBot
base: %foo
base/"some filename with a { brace and spaces"/bar.txt
 
@HostileFork I am not interested in names.
 
@RebolBot
base: %foo
base/stuff/bar.txt
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== %foo/stuff/bar.txt
 
5:56 AM
Really if one is going to be iconoclastic here, then the thing to attack is the existing "religion of the path!". I think that above, we can see a value that would be achieved by permitting strings in paths (for instance).
More generically, I've made a plea on the behalf of dialect designers who aren't using PATH! in a DO imperative style. The simple workarounds like "instead of writing (some stuff)/foo/bar why don't you write z: (some stuff) foo/bar" may not apply, because you may not have z: representing assignment in your dialect. What paths mean could be something entirely non-evaluative in an imperative style. The odd restriction of PATH! may break you.
@rgchris ^-- opinions from a dialect designer solicited here as well
And even more generally, there seems to be an impasse over a question of "what is the point of all this". In my mind, I got the concept that in the Rebol/Redverse then the only time you would break out to strings for messaging and file formats is if you're interfacing with someone else...but that you use "REN" otherwise.
This adheres to the idea that Rebol/Red syntax is not tailored to care solely about what it takes to express the range of constructs that appear in known Rebol/Red code.
Rather...that it seeks to be a wholesale replacement for unstructured text files for those who can afford the freedom.
A true replacement for XML that is strictly more powerful... not "a notation that works pretty well for Rebol/Red code...and if it falls short for you, write your own string parser". That is not a very strong rallying cry, IMO.
 
 
1 hour later…
7:12 AM
1 hour ago, by HostileFork
More generically, I've made a plea on the behalf of dialect designers who aren't using PATH! in a DO imperative style. The simple workarounds like "instead of writing (some stuff)/foo/bar why don't you write z: (some stuff) foo/bar" may not apply, because you may not have z: representing assignment in your dialect. What paths mean could be something entirely non-evaluative in an imperative style. The odd restriction of PATH! may break you.
I meant to point out that in a dialect, one can't necessarily get equivalent behavior with... z: (some stuff) z/foo/bar. Left off the z.
 
7:29 AM
@PeterWAWood Interesting. It looks like I could put in a Rebol expression and get a Rebol result, but I'd rather get the intermediate JS code created by compilation of the Rebol expression. I'm sure that is happening somewhere within Topaz, but I think it would be a time consuming task to try to isolate it.
I may be able to use the functionality, however, in providing more dynamic scripting, although it would be limited and not as tightly integrated.
What I mean to say is that it would be hack-ish to do it that way.
 
7:52 AM
@liumengjiang Welcome, feel free to ask any question or throw in your thoughts on any existing Rebol issue...20 points to chat is an easy bar with the "rebol bump"
 
 
3 hours later…
10:36 AM
For any Amiga fans here there was a post on HN about a Unix BSD OS called DragonFly. Never heard of it before but apparently its developed by an Amiga developer and is inspired by AmigaOS - news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8663173
 
 
2 hours later…
1:01 PM
Hm, this does not bode well in that DocKimbel disapproves of parens in paths just overall. So he doesn't even like things of the form a/(b + c)/d and considers them a bad thing.
 
1:30 PM
Ladislav had that big issue talking about spacing, and I guess it really is time for people to pipe up about it. PATH! is a tricky thing because it is a structural block type but has an "interstitial" delimiter.
So we are stuck asking questions like "what does [a]/[b] come as? Is that the same as [a] / [b] or is it a path with two block elements?
I find myself feeling like arguing to say that it's better to say it's a path with two block elements, because "if I'd wanted [a] / [b] I'd have written that"
Which seems consistent with other demands the languages make on newcomers, who express dismay at why they can't divide by typing a/b
The rhetoric says "If that's what you wanted you should have written a / b, and think of all the benefit you get. Literate code that can have URLs in it without getting confused that http://example.com is trying to divide http: by something..."
It seems that there are competing ideas here, and one is the "second-class citizen status of PATH!" vs the "no need for spacing near asymmetric delimiters"
[a][b] should be equivalent to [ a ] [ b ] after all.
I guess what I'm really arguing for is promoting PATH! to a first-class citizen of Rebol, with the exception of when some cue comes before it that has already decided the type. Currently a colon that is not leading cues URL!.
And a slash in isolation is one of those "word exceptions"
But we know it's not always an exception:
>> type? load "foo/(some stuff)/bar"
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== path!
 
It sounds like a hidden truth is that DocKimbel would ideally roll that back if users would not complain. Since they would complain, he abides by it.
I'd prefer either the upgraded thoughts of doing what has been done properly, or rolling it back...vs. what there is today. But the implications of rolling it back make a certain statement about the language.
>> load "(foo)/(bar)"
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== [(foo) / (bar)]
 
That right there is a cornerstone of an argument. Is it more valuable to have PATH! as indicated by a / be a more powerful type that can bind to its neighboring items...providing rich path syntax. Or is it more valuable to establish a rule about a lack of significance of spacing near asymmetric delimiters?
If this were a performance review, it would be like giving / a promotion.
(the way that , got demoted)
To look at it with fresh eyes, I would say that the breadth that this would give the currently-anemic path! type is of more worth vs. the cost. It asks something seemingly difficult...
>> load "(foo)baz(bar)"
 
1:47 PM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== [(foo) baz (bar)]
 
It says "/ is special, and it means something you need to pay attention to."
I don't know that it's worthwhile to be afraid of making / special, because it already is.
If anything, it might suggest that allowing it to mean "divide" is a point of confusion.
+ has no unique role in Rebol lexically, nor does -, or *. But / is certainly special. And divisions are done but how often? Might it be rare enough that path syntax trump it?
It might clear up confusion if / were just wiped out of words and you were asked to used divide. It's not that bad.
 
2:29 PM
go to bed HF! ;-) I don't see a future for a language that has no / operator and you must write 'divide' all the time you want to divide something. At least I would not use that language.
 
@iArnold It's not necessary to exclude it, I was only mentioning that perhaps some of the discomfort with (a)/(b) comes from these conflicting rules. But I guess people have to sort of come up with an opinion on a/(b)/(c) and a/b that reconciles with a / b.
If it's a parsing exception, then it's a parsing exception. Of course, each one has a "tax".
It's currently a parsing exception, I was just pointing out that one need not accept that as a foregone conclusion. You've reacted with your thoughts. That's fine.
And if you are one of those people who divides all the time, there'd always be dv: :divide ...
Hey @VeeeneX
 

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