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4:00 AM
@earl I don't know if it's so much about you being like me, rather us both being like a sensible programmer who understands the meaning of "Weeks of programming can save you hours of planning." :-)
 
4:19 AM
@pekr I'm aware they exist, though I don't know the conclusions. In talking about the equalities I was trying to be focused to the question asked and my thoughts.
>> pick [apple banana pear orange] true
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== apple
 
>> pick [apple banana pear orange] false
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== banana
 
I bristled at that, because TRUE/FALSE doesn't seem like a good input to PICK. And if it were, it's a very strange mapping to say false is the second item while TRUE is the first. (If anything, TRUE should pick the head and FALSE the tail, I'd think.) Some people would tell me "that's a great thing about Rebol, you really can give meaning to any type you pass in". Which is weirder than other languages.
I think saying that "natural =" can give meanings based on usefulness of the = function for products in the type matrix that isn't necessarily all about what people traditionally think about equality is a little along the lines of being able to pick with a boolean vs being strictly about an integer index.
It's really about how you model what you're looking at. The "education" of "a codepoint and a series of codepoints are distinct types" is an "education" you can get from other languages, even just plain C. That saying that "any language that doesn't change the way you think about programming isn't worth learning" comes in.
 
@Hosti
 
4:26 AM
I think "a" = first "abcdef" returning true, and explaining how natural = works, is its own education. To explain the reasoning for why the "natural =" chose to defer that matrix entry to ~= instead of ==, even though it might be seen as an "equality lie"
And I suppose I'm comfortable with 1 = #{01} also (while 1 == #{01}) is false, and don't feel an inconsistency with saying that it doesn't imply 1 = [1].
@WiseGenius Strangely that message reads only @Hosti, yet it highlighted me. Dunno if there's some bug.
 
@HostileFork Interesting. Well, I typed that much, and a box came up with your name, so I decided to risk experimenting to see if it would autocomplete if I pressed Enter. Instead, it sent.
 
@WiseGe
Did that highlight?
 
Yes, it did for me too.
Maybe a feature?
 
@WiseGe
How about that? (with a space after it)
 
Highlighted too.
@RebolB Hello.
@RebolBot Goodbye.
 
4:36 AM
@WiseGenius What do you mean?
 
Oh well.
@HostileFork What are your thoughts on #[...] being used for map! and the construction syntax being changed to #(...)?
 
>> probe #
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
none
== none
 
That's a #[none!], actually.
What I've noticed is that if that is a "feature", which people might use, then having #[...] as a construction syntax creates an issue for usage in the uniformity of the rules of space irrelevance around brackets.
 
>> mold/all #
 
4:39 AM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== "#[none]"
 
>> load "abc[def]"
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== [abc [def]]
 
>> load "#[def]"
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/syntax-malconstruct.html
    *** ERROR
** Syntax error: invalid construction spec: [def]
** Where: to case load
** Near: to block! data
 
In looking at that, I feel either the feature of # as #[none!] should be struck or construction syntax be changed, and we've been speaking about the need for improving construction syntax anyway.
But I mentioned the importance of having some easy lexical way of producing literal nones when looking at passing a NONE! in a quoted context.
For instance foreach none [a b c] [print "I didn't need a loop variable"] is bad, because you're redefining NONE in the body of the loop, not skipping the need for a lop variable
 
4:44 AM
@HostileFork If so, it's the very same issue that "rules of space irrelevance" have around quotes.
>> load "abc^"def^""
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== [abc "def"]
 
>> load "#^"d^""
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== #"d"
 
I personally don't see the issue ... yet, I'm still working on issues :)
 
@MarkI On that one, I do not see the value of space irrelevance around quotes. I see it as counterproductive and would like to see it stricken.
Space irrelevance around brackets is a necessity. They're even in the logo for their "specialness"
 
4:47 AM
So abc"def" as syntax error?
 
In my world, yes... or has special meaning
A syntax error at least until such time as a need arises for giving it a meaning
In C++ things that come before quotes can indicate string encoding. u8"def" for UTF8 for instance
The distinction of brackets is critical. We don't want to be forced to write while [ a < 10 ] [ print ++ a ]. The logo rightfully points out the spacelessness of [o] so you've been given a heads up.
 
@HostileFork Parentheses too?
 
I believe that is also a requirement, yes
 
@HostileFork Yes, I <a src="http://curecode.org/rebol3/ticket.rsp?id=1903#comments">saw that</a>, and agree.
Still learning markdown.
Until then, I didn't realize a lone # could be used as #[none]. Is that a recent thing?
 
[saw that](http://curecode.org/rebol3/ticket.rsp?id=1903#comments)
 
4:51 AM
@HostileFork Thanks.
 
@RebolBot do/2
load "#"
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== #
 
Issues were changed from strings in Rebol2 to words in Rebol3
# used to be an "empty string issue", as one might wish <> to be an "empty tag" instead of !=
 
@HostileFork I'm sorry HF, but it's word TYPE not word
The rules are quite different
 
Yes, you know what I meant.
an ANY-WORD
 
4:52 AM
There are other readers ...
 
In any case, when the change happened to an ANY-WORD! for ISSUE!, then the rules against empty-string-named words came in, freeing up # for something. Given something had to be done, it was just set to mean a NONE!.
 
I'm just saying, # is a shorthand for the VALUE none!, not the WORD none
 
"a NONE!" will do.
@RebolBot do/2
probe type? to-word {}
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-past-end.html
    *** ERROR
code: 315
type: script
id: past-end
arg1: none
arg2: none
arg3: none
near: [to word! :value]
where: to-word
 
Er. What?
@RebolBot do/2
x: to word! ""
type? x
 
4:55 AM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-past-end.html
    *** ERROR
code: 315
type: script
id: past-end
arg1: none
arg2: none
arg3: none
near: [x: to word! ""
    type?
]
where: none
 
Well that's the failure mode of empty-string words in Rebol2 I guess.
 
>> to word! ""
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-too-short.html
    *** ERROR
** Script error: content too short (or just whitespace)
** Where: to
** Near: to word! ""
 
It's a failure in R3 also.
Oh, you were wondering about why the errors look so different, my bad.
 
Right. Well anyway, that's why something had to change about #. And of course the question of space significance was not considered, as generally such formalisms must be reasoned about after-the-fact vs in design. An unfortunate aspect of the nature of the project, but as pointed out frequently...this isn't Haskell.
 
5:03 AM
Formalism is one thing. Pretty is another.
 
To some, formalism is beauty in and of itself.
 
'Course, I thought APL was pretty ...
Like my APL prof.
He forced me to use an ASCII terminal to write APL programs.
 
@MarkI Haha!
 
$QDab$EQ7 gak ...
 
@HostileFork I'm not sure if you're aware, but the reason I brought up the # syntax is that DocKimbel has asked on AltMe, “Is there a consensus for changing the construction syntax to using #(...), so that #[...] is freed for map! datatype? We have almost finished the implementation of map!, so that would be the right time to make that decision. ”
 
5:07 AM
@WiseGenius You can mention as a talking point that # being NONE! is contentious with #[...] syntax in general, due to space significance and cite the example.
 
@WiseGenius I know this is not the forum, but really, why not #[map! []]?
Why do you have to take everything?
Er, I know it's not you, sorry.
And did we see that AltMe message here? Did I miss it?
 
@MarkI I frequently make the distinction between engineering CAD programs like SolidWorks vs painting programs like Corel Painter. To me, the programming world has yet to get a really "pretty" imperative interpreted language, that has the right malleability. Homoiconicity is non-negotiable for it.
@MarkI Only ANNOUNCE is reflected here. RebolBot scrapes AltMe public at rebol.info.
 
@HostileFork Right, I forgot. Has my #[map! []] proposal been shot down already?
 
@HostileFork I'm not on AltMe myself, I just read that page. If ever I've wanted to contribute to a discussion there, I've just thrown my 2¢ on SO.
 
@WiseGenius Really? They all read this?
 
5:12 AM
@MarkI The issue is in general that construction syntax at present is considered to lack ergonomics, so people are trying to hack around that with a few syntaxes here and there for the most pressing things instead of actually solving the general problem.
 
@MarkI No, I'm not really contributing for discussion, but just to add my opinion for DocKimbel's benefit.
 
@WiseGenius Thanks, I'll have to chase it down myself.
@WiseGenius I'm in that room, no mention yet.
 
Yeah, strange. I would have thought he'd want everyone to "vote". Maybe he just wanted to exclude @HostileFork? :P
@MarkI I'm not sure what you mean by “Why do you have to take everything?”?
 
Whatever, if there's a big stink about how MUCH better #[] is for maps than #[map! []] could EVER be, that's too horrible to contemplate.
@WiseGenius I meant taking the whole syntax.
 
map@[...] and object@[...] etc would be a better generalizable syntax.
 
5:21 AM
@HostileFork Interesting.
 
@HostileFork Er ... why exactly? One less bracket nest?
 
One less is a great improvement.
 
@HostileFork Improvement, possibly. Great improvement, possibly not.
 
I'm afraid that if "Ren" will ever be a viable "readable notation" and peer to JSON, such a shift in thinking is an absolute requirement.
Nix a nesting level of brackets, nix an exclamation point, retake # for the issue type and none!
Take an invalid EMAIL! formation and soup it up... if map@ is a load error (requiring construction syntax itself) you are not excluding map@ [...] with a space because that wouldn't load.
 
@MarkI I agree that it seems a little redundant, however it does make things easier for me. I use maps a lot! Also, I use the constructed form a lot.
 
5:25 AM
email@{map@} to get a real EMAIL! with content map@
 
@HostileFork Danger, Will Robinson! Your brackets are curling ...
 
If the construction syntax takes a string, why do email@[{map@}]? Things like this work already today.
>> print %{/some/path with/spaces in it}
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl

== "/some/path with/spaces in it"
 
I decided I'd be okay with word@{some word with spaces} and set-word@{some set word with spaces}.
 
@HostileFork As shorthands for the #[{}] versions, or on their own?
 
5:29 AM
@HostileFork What does @DocKimbel think of this idea?
 
The main point as I see it is we are talking about construction syntax, not regular syntax.
 
I would eliminate #[...] syntax entirely, for among reasons like thinking that it's overloaded enough being used for ISSUE! types and now this (very useful, actually) substitute for NONE!. There may not be a problem with allowing word@[{some word with spaces}], but I am a fan of canonization where possible. Having two ways to write things when one better way would do kind of asks for trouble.
 
Everybody agrees there is no, and should be any, regular syntax for maps, or set-words with spaces, or whatever.
 
@MarkI No, everybody does not.
 
So if we've already settled on an ugly step-sister of regular syntax, it's a bit of sewing on a sow's ear to say it has to be pretty too.
 
5:32 AM
@MarkI Wait, what do you mean by regular syntax? "non-construction?" If so, yes, then I agree.
 
@HostileFork That.
 
Oh. Okay. Fine.
Though I dunno. foo^(space)bar: 10. I actually think that with tab being as uncommon as it is, foo^-bar: 10 might not be bad for space escaping. Tab could be something else. ^/ is good for newline. Hm... foo^|bar: might be okay for tab.
Looks more like a "tab stop" being vertical
 
I really like ^/ for newline, I want it to work in blocks just like carriage return.
 
Hm, the literal character?
 
No, the "word".
It's not a word, but it can be used like one
 
5:36 AM
Oh. I see. So you mean ^/: lf
 
No, only as word, no set or get form.
 
Actually that is a very interesting idea, indeed.
 
@HostileFork What would you suggest instead of #[...] for map!? Or if we ended up with that, what would you suggest instead of # for none?
 
No I meant that would be the current definition of it (as LF is defined)
But that would indeed get rid of CR LF and SP.
I hate those things but came to grudgingly accept them.
Well, there'd have to be a version for CR too
Hm, so if proper escaping were allowed in words, and you defined these "escaped" words as being defined as their character mappings...
 
@HostileFork That is interesting.
 
5:38 AM
x: {First line}
y: {Second line}
z: {Third line}
print [x ^/ y ^/ z]
Okay, you win interesting idea of the week award.
Suddenly we have an escaping form for getting words with weird characters in them that's no uglier than the rest of the escaping
Then define these "words" to mean their escaped character equivalents
Then kill CR, LF, SP.
type-of quote ^/ => word!, type-of ^/ => char!
That is nice-looking. And it doesn't exclude print [x newline y newline x]
Switch it so ^- takes space, and ^| takes tab
Carriage-return can be... er, something ugly because everyone hates carriage return. It's okay if it sticks out like a sore thumb. How about truth-in-advertising: ^M
Because that's what the darn thing looks like if I ever get a file with it in there.
@WiseGenius Is this on target with what you would mean? It would mean, you could reassign them though. ^/: {foo} would get you First linefooSecond linefooThird linefoo.
Also, have you tried a build of Ren Garden?
 
@HostileFork Did you mean @MarkI?
 
@WiseGenius Oops, yes. But my question remains about Ren Garden.
@MarkI See above. Is this what you meant?
 
BTW, @MarkI I just noticed your avatar and name together could be meant to reference “Oh, Hi Mark!”. Sorry if it isn't?
 
6:04 AM
@HostileFork No, I haven't yet, sorry. I was thinking about it yesterday though, while away from my computer. I was wondering whether I still had Qt or would have to set it up again. It turns out I don't have it anymore. Grumble grumble! This is why I want to switch to Red. :P
 
@WiseGenius Building in a VM is always a win
 
6:36 AM
morning
 
Yip.
 
:)
 
I actually had some idle chat thing to post, like "oh, I found this cool thing" and didn't have anyone to show it to. Thought of posting it here. I forget what it was.
 
find out :)
take a 1 minute of meditative silence and you will remember
I was looking for a lib/solution in crypto for JS
basically get a key from the server to the js script, then encode some text on the clientside and sent it back to the server
and the server should have some other key/mechanism to decode it back
^ any thoughts ?
 
6:46 AM
 
@CSᵠ With encryption, the question is "who should know what". If you are custom rolling a cryptographic solution and not just trusting HTTPS, you'll probably do it wrong.
What is it you're trying to do, that HTTPS doesn't do?
 
@HostileFork want to use something instead of https (where not available)
but actually forcing https could be a better idea
and https can be MitM-ed
basically the user should not tamper with the code
 
@CSᵠ The theory goes that the precise value of HTTPS is that it cannot, if your browser has hardcoded knowledge of who it trusts and the certificates need to line up on either end.
"In theory there is no difference between theory and practice; in practice there is."
 
well, at least on the same machine with the browser, it can be MitM-ed
 
6:52 AM
outside of both machines communicating maybe only via exploits, not the case worried about
 
Just use HTTPS. any cryptographic solution trying to communicate in plain sight between parties who did not personally exchange keys prior can't work against an attacker, except through obscurity.
 
yeah, thanks
now my brain just freed a rather large branch :)
 
Which sometimes can be the best way. For anyone who says "security through obscurity isn't real security" didn't notice that code talkers helped win WWII.
Code talkers are people in the 20th century who used obscure languages as a means of secret communication during wartime. The term is now usually associated with the United States soldiers during the world wars who used their knowledge of Native American languages as a basis to transmit coded messages. In particular, there were approximately 400–500 Native Americans in the United States Marine Corps whose primary job was the transmission of secret tactical messages. Code talkers transmitted these messages over military telephone or radio communications nets using formal or informally developed...
 
@HostileFork i'm a fan of that technique, but it's not for any case
also.. adding a few StO layers one after another would increase the entropy enough
and get defeated the second another party gets the 'key'
 
@CSᵠ Well, sometimes you encode things such that they are what they are. Where the secret hides in plain sight. USCII was designed for that.
 
6:59 AM
@HostileFork awesome
 
The answers to my "secret questions" for identity recovery are often the actual answers to the questions. They're just encoded in USCII.
 
How do I ask the RebolBot to evaluate something again?
@RebolBot ?
 
@mydoghasworms What do you mean?
 
@HostileFork and now you just shared that on the internet...
 
7:02 AM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
Use HELP or ? to see built-in info:

    help insert
    ? insert

To search within the system, use quotes:

    ? "insert"

To browse online web documents:

    help/doc insert

To view words and values of a context or object:

    ? lib    - the runtime library
    ? self   - your user context
    ? system - the system object
    ? system/options - special settings

To see all words of a specific datatype:

    ? native!
    ? function!
    ? datatype!
 
@RebolBot fetch me a beer, please. Make it a cold one.
 
@CSᵠ Please continue.
 
@CSᵠ Of course. Bruce Schneier says "just bang on the keyboard and forget about it. the mechanism for password recovery shouldn't be easier than proving who I am in the first place, so I should have to get on the phone and prove who I am (through some other means". And he's a smart guy, but he's only seeing half the picture. How do you disprove a bunch of random characters isn't an account created by Bruce Schneier?
 
@CSᵠ Hilarity in pill form! :-)
Can someone explain the following to me please:
 
>> print ">> followed by a space is a way of giving me one line commands"
 
7:03 AM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
>> followed by a space is a way of giving me one line commands
 
>> [2]/1
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== /1
 
>> type? [2]/1
Why does it not return the first value in the block, i.e. 2?
 
@RebolBot pretty please, with sugar on top?
 
@CSᵠ Please continue.
 
7:04 AM
>> load "[2]/1"
 
aaand it's gone
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== [[2] /1]
 
>> type? [2]/1
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== /1
 
@mydoghasworms Because it didn't load as a PATH!. For a long and detailed explanation of my thoughts on the matter: NewPath
 
7:05 AM
btw @HostileFork was looking at those -> code.google.com/p/crypto-js
 
@HostileFork Obrigado.
 
And the related project descriptions.
I'm interested to see how that comes out.
 
reading...
@RebolBot tell me a joke
 
@CSᵠ That's very interesting.
 
ha ha ha
 
7:32 AM
Funny joke! Made me laugh too.
 
>> RebolBot
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-no-value.html
    *** ERROR
** Script error: RebolBot has no value
** Where:
** Near: try load/all join %/users/try-REBOL/data/ system/script/args...
 
Low self esteem. :-(
 
^ RebolBot has no value
>> money
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-no-value.html
    *** ERROR
** Script error: money has no value
** Where:
** Near: try load/all join %/users/try-REBOL/data/ system/script/args...
 
7:37 AM
figures
 
8:32 AM
posted on February 27, 2015 by fork

[Wish] Several longstanding complaints I've had personally are covered by this proposal... which combines an idea I had with something suggested by @MarkI in chat: http://chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/21807451#21807451 One complaint I've repeatedly voiced is that there shouldn't be restrictions on what legal characters can be in an ANY-WORD! if built using a construction syntax.

 
@MarkI No. The background of that long-standing discussion precisely is that many people agree that there should be a regular syntax for maps.
@HostileFork Surely enough, ^M already is the escape for CR in Rebol :)
>> crlf
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== "^M^/"
 
@earl Didn't even know, never use it on purpose. :-)
>> type? foo@
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== email!
 
If it were shifted to where foo@{...} or foo@[...] were construction syntaxes, then what about @[...] being the map syntax? Are people truly in love with the #? # seems overloaded with being a NONE! and a valid starting character for ISSUE!. EMAIL! is already a weird type, and if you couldn't end a valid LOADable email with an @ then you're not taking anything away
e.g. "#[...]" could load as a NONE! followed by whatever block, but you wouldn't be able to mistake "FOO@[...]" for that or "@[...]" for that because it would simply refuse FOO@ and @ as isolatable LOADables.
If you wanted an empty email you could write email@{}. Which is a bit odd, but I think this construction syntax has several benefits. It's essentially the caret proposal without the caret, in part because I think the caret has a better purpose and also this is more noticeable
 
8:49 AM
@HostileFork @[...] is also a good idea, yes. Slightly more visually noisy than #[...], but only slightly.
May even be the better idea :)
 
@earl On my monitor it's kind of less noisy, the pound mark is very "dense"
 
Fair enough.
 
Red/System online documentation updated to cover the new exceptions handling features.
 
>> load "foo @[bar baz] qux"
 
And if there were one meaning for @{...} the best one is probably an equivalent for word@{...}
It doesn't know r3 as a language prefix, nor rebol3
 
8:53 AM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/syntax-invalid.html
    *** ERROR
** Syntax error: invalid "email" -- "@"
** Where: to case load
** Near: (line 1) foo @[bar baz] qux
 
rebol2> load "foo @[bar baz] qux"
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/syntax-invalid.html
    *** ERROR
code: 200
type: syntax
id: invalid
arg1: "email"
arg2: "@"
arg3: none
near: "(line 1) foo @[bar baz] qux"
where: none
 
That's good.
 
Perhaps even @< blah blah > and @<> could work around the "empty tag" or "tag starting with a space"
While preserving the existing exceptions
 
red> load "foo @[bar baz] qux"
 
8:55 AM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
*** Syntax Error: invalid Red value at: @[bar baz] qux
== foo
 
Very good.
 
red> load "foo@"
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
*** Syntax Error: invalid Red value at: @
== foo
 
posted on February 27, 2015 by fork

[Comment] I consider this idea to be completely superseded by the far better realization of the wish specified in #0002195 ... closing.

 
@HostileFork @[...] most likely is the better idea. Thanks for reminding me (us) of it again.
2
(I think we had that in the discussion about caret for construction syntax recently, which is why I say "reminding". Haven't double-checked, though, so sorry if I belittle your original thought :)
 
9:03 AM
@earl You did dis the caret, at least. And I think there's a much better use of caret, as above. So good intuition. Probably the main reason I didn't consider it was trying to solve the space problem, and not having a good caret-escape for space as precedent kept me from "seeing it"
Now that I see it, the other ideas seem rather bad. foo^-bar: 10 ... why didn't I think of that before.
"because it's a tab..."
@earl I think that moving toward the foo@[...] is a much better plan in general for construction syntax than #[foo! [...]]. It scans better and fits into this larger strategy. But also, the idea of # as a shortcut to create a NONE! literal value started striking me as very important, because you can't put NONE in a quoted context. And I kind of like a lone # for that.
To keep everything working coherently then load "#[...]" needs to be [# [...]]. I'm not sure if the default mold of a NONE! value should be none@ or # in that case. The latter doesn't actually seem so bad, it's teachable and brief.
It would "stand out" if you were reading a series of symbols as "hey, there's a NONE! in there"
(although the issue! might take issue with that statement)
 
9:31 AM
If you are going to move datatype outside of construction syntax block, why not just use !? So instead of #[foo! [...]] you would have foo![..].
 
@rebolek For the reasons as mentioned. FOO! is a valid word (and a datatype) and the spacing rules around brackets need to be able to treat foo![...] the same as foo! [...]
The reason we're attacking this notion of needing some kind of "invalid" leading thing is because it would otherwise have no meaning, so the space rules don't need to be honored.
 
@HostileFork And foo@ is valid email!. What's the difference?
 
@rebolek The difference is I think it's worth breaking that and saying it isn't valid to get the benefit. I don't know anyone whose email address is formed like that where the mail will be delivered.
You'll still be able to form such things, but you'll write as email@{foo@}.
 
@HostileFork I understand, but ! makes more sense in this context.
 
Well if we really went whole hog into the words separated by spaces. Maybe we could say that the rule about brackets and parens only applies to the insides not the outsides.
Outside of Rebmu, I wouldn't mind the rule that you needed to write if condition [x] and couldn't write if condition[x]. But I would mind having to write if condition [ x ].
Saying the rule about spacing only applied inside and not outside would open up even more lexical space for interesting ideas, at what I'd consider no real cost. If that happened then yes, your idea seems like a good one
Because you'd always expect to see a space before or after a bracket, and if you didn't, you'd know it was some scrunchy alternative thing.
 
9:40 AM
Problem with the "only inside" rule is that many like to write ...][..., which I see no strong reason for prohibiting.
So needs an exception for that.
 
@HostileFork That's a good rule and I'm using it already.
 
@rebolek The @ proposal is designed to fit into the existing world, where foo![...] is simply off the table. If you want to put it on the table and try your proposal, and have people gripe at you for thinking, please go ahead...welcome to my world. :-)
 
It's just that @ is same random character as #. ! OTOH means datatype so makes sense here.
 
@earl Ok, I'm trying to :) I'm fixing it, when I see it.
 
9:45 AM
@rebolek Well it only supports your argument... if it was illegal, you'd not have done it. :-)
 
:)
 
@rebolek Well, regardless, foo![...] and foo! [...] both being valid and meaning drastically different things has its own cost. The idea of building on an actual invalid construct is what the aim is, and one of the problems I've cited is that #[...] and # [...] today mean drastically different things while both being valid.
Hence this attempt to "step outside that box" and lead with an actual invalid thing, then require no space, in order to properly cue the system. And aesthetics matter too. So we're talking about @ vs # on that front as well.
 
Anyway, I don't want to even start to imagine problems we can run into, if anyone takes your other proposal seriously (words with spaces).
 
@rebolek There is a lengthy Ladislav ticket on that already.
 
@rebolek People might actually be able to map existing domains into dialects, and use Rebol types to represent tokens even when those tokens don't have the same natural naming rules as Rebol.
There might be actual dialects created
Horror!
 
9:50 AM
@earl To allow spaces in words?
@HostileFork You can match "word with spaces" right now. Your rule will be ['word 'with 'spaces].
 
@rebolek You remain unsympathetic. I've explained to you the challenges of dialect design when the source medium you are trying to represent doesn't have the same rules.
Chris has tried clever things like order-independent representation of things you might put in an HTML tag like the ID or the CLASS. And he gets a clever idea in his head like #foo will translate to <div id="foo"> or bar: will mean <div class="bar">. Or whatever.
The moment the rules of HTML for what's a legal ID or a legal class don't precisely line up with Rebol's natural lexical rules for words, POOF
Goodbye clever idea. No soup for you.
 
@rebolek No, I thought you were talking about the "Rebol is words separated by spaces" discussion.
 
No matter what the JS script you included expected the class name to be, hardcoded by someone who doesn't program a line of Rebol
Your clever Rebol idea is dead in the water as a complete solution
So it's Rebol or bust. And historically the result of that has been: bust
Or burden the dialect author with a dual track dialect implementation. They wind up inventing their own escaping mechanism, two ways to say the same thing. Every dialect author. Every time this happens.
So instead of Chris being able to happily say #foo is the div id, he has to invent something else with a string escape. Maybe divid {foo}? Who knows. But dialect design just went from simple and elegant to more work than it's worth.
 

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