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1:26 AM
@pekr First time you're an uncle, or just the first time you're happy? :-)
@pep Unfortunately, Rebol development hasn't really centralized. The Atronix repository is advanced most rapidly with work on the GUI and other features: github.com/zsx/r3
 
2:25 AM
@giuliolunati I think the common term is Saints.
@HostileFork Adrian once volunteered to track rebol activity ...
 
3:01 AM
@pep I would say that this chat is probably the central r3 page for the moment
 
3:16 AM
Cleaned up from:
As the Red/System logo.
Nucleus could be smaller, but it makes it feel a bit stronger to have it heftier.
 
3:45 AM
@johnk what sort of panels do you have? I've been quoted for a 3kw array and inverter .. Samil SR3000TL
Inverter is said to come with embedded web server for monitoring.
And Canadian Solar CS6P panels with 25 year warranty that they'll keep 80% of power production.
 
4:47 AM
@HappySpoon panels are LDK, inverter is a PowerOne Aurora. An embedded web server for monitoring would be handy!
 
@johnk NZ manufactures Enasolar inverters with embedded web servers, but Samil, a Chinese brand, also now has a web server
They're offering me the Samil.
Since I've got a flat roof, they're going to have to install on frames, and the frames clip the upper part of the W of the long run roofing iron. No roof penetrations they say
but they need to align with the ridges so it won't be true north but 20 degrees north west. So, I'll get more evening power I guess
 
5:01 AM
I don't know what pages would use that. But... there it is.
 
Should be on the webpage re-lang.org. Favicons are a must for websites =)
>> aRedValue: [1 2 3] [red-block!]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== [red-block!]
 
>> aRebolBlock: [1 2 3][block!]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== [block!]
 
Where is the difference between a red-block! and a block! ?

I could not find the source-code for any datatypes prefixed with 'red-'. Could someone point in the right direction where to find information about those special red-datatypes?
Please forgive my newbie questions ;)
 
5:18 AM
the >> invokes the Rebol3 interpreter. So, you do an assignment, and then you provide an unevaluated block.
there's no evaluation of either [block!] or [red-block!] or [blue-block!] or whatever
 
hm...
 
>> JoeDredBlock: [ 1 2 3 ][JoeDredBlock!]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== [JoeDredBlock!]
 
that makes sense
but why do so many functions in the red-repository have a red-block! as argument
is this just a convention?
 
Got a url? I've not looked.
 
5:28 AM
@JoeDred That icon only represents Red/System. The Red favicon is:
 
Moment, im searching
 
red / runtime / datatypes / action.reds for example has this function:

make: func [
proto [red-value!]
spec [red-block!]
return: [red-action!] ;-- return action cell pointer
/local
action [red-action!]
s [series!]
index [integer!]
][...]
 
They must refer to specific red system datatypes
 
@JoeDred Back on the distinction... that's a Red/System file (.reds)... it's a different language from Red, though it is a dialect so it uses the same source notation. If you haven't already seen it, here's the Red/System spec: static.red-lang.org/red-system-specs-light.html
 
5:33 AM
So, the rebol2 interpreter uses those type declarations for checking I guess
 
I read the Red/System Spec and it seems that the distinction between red an red/system is not yet clear to me
 
red/system is a rebol2 dialect that is used to produce executables.
 
I would not bother you if i had found an documentation about Red, but there is nothing written yet?
 
red is a rebol2 fork
that is primarily using compiled code generated by red/system, but also a run time intepreter for stuff that can not be compiled.
 
@JoeDred Did you watch the "What is Red" video?
 
5:42 AM
hostilefork ported red/system to run under rebol3 but has not maintained it.
And that's my sum knowledge of the matter
 
Red is a high level language which doesn't want to rely on any external toolchain, and doesn't want to produce intermediate files during compilation that don't adhere to the Ren notation. This means that it doesn't want to require the use of LLVM or anything like that in order to go from source to binary.
 
@HostileFork To my shame...no
 
Good video, worth the time
 
I promise its on my TODO-List for this weekend!
the picture gets clearer... at least a little bit
 
Red/System is similar to C, but it doesn't have the ability to do the metaprogramming. So I'm not really sure what red-block! is. That's a new thing.
There is no block! type in Red/System, because it is like C. There's no built in dynamic data structure like that. You're working with bits and bytes, ints and floats and pointers.
It is used to implement the higher-level functions in Red. So whereas Rebol is written in C, Red's runtime is implemented as Red/System.
 
5:51 AM
My knowledge of C is very limited :(
 
Have you seen any PARSE code yet?
 
yes but I couldnt make sense out of it...
 
>> parse "aaabbbeeee" [some "a" 3 "b" any "d" 2 4 "e"]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== true
 
Translated into English: "analyze the string aaabbbeeee and return true if it consists of some number of "a"s (at least one), followed by exactly 3 "b"s, then any number of "d"s (zero okay), followed by between 2 and 4 "e""
>> parse "bbbeeee" [some "a" 3 "b" any "d" 2 4 "e"]
 
5:54 AM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== false
 
That's a very simple regex-like task
You can use brackets or line breaks to make it clearer.
@RebolBot
parse "aaabbbeeee" [
    some "a"
    3 "b"
    [any "d"] [2 4 "e"]
]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== true
 
Unlike RegEx, you can also pull out rules into separate variables.
@RebolBot
d-e-rule: [any "d" 2 4 "e"]
parse "aaabbbeeee" [
    some "a"
    3 "b"
    d-e-rule
]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== true
 
Is this the red/system or red?
 
5:56 AM
@JoeDred Make sense so far?
Parse is a higher level behavior, it is only in Red (and Rebol)
But I brought it up to show you a contrast.
 
@HostileFork makes sense
 
In Rebol, the PARSE engine is implemented in u-parse.c. It is C code, and part of the larger C codebase.
In Red, the PARSE engine is implemented in parse.reds. It is part of the Red runtime, and is written in Red/System.
 
so when red is finally self hosted, everything is written in red/system, right?
 
The runtime will be in Red/System, but the needs of writing the compiler itself are a bit higher level
So it would likely be that the compiler would be written in Red, as a bootstrap. I think there's no good reason to rush that.
However, an interesting aspect is that Red includes a Red/System compiler inside of it. So red.exe can build .reds files or .red files.
You can also give it .red files and tell it to produce the intermediary .reds system files for you to look at.
But it doesn't need to produce any files on the disk, because since Red/System uses the same data structure that Red uses for metaprogramming itself, it just builds the code structures in memory and compiles them without going to disk
It only dumps them out if you want to look at them.This is different than other toolchains which use lots of different file formats, and are not as holistically designed.
 
I think we got to a point where my mind cannot follow you any more... :( Its not that I wouldnt like to...
 
6:04 AM
Well, have you ever compiled a C program?
 
Dont mean to be offensive to you. Its just my little brain begins to shut down ;)

Yes but only once or twice...
 
I guess the thing to know is that a lot of compilers are written in layers. They do not go directly from the text you input to machine code for the system you are targeting.
The issue is that the instructions processors run are different, and if you have N different languages you want to build for M different processors, you would have to have NxM codebases.
The simplification pattern that most people have is to use some kind of "IL" or "Intermediate Language". So your N different languages are written to produce the IL, and then you have an IL compiler that goes to M different processors.
Then you write N compilers to produce IL, and M compilers to turn that IL into instructions for the M processors. So it's N + M
If you have 7 languages and 10 processor targets, that's 17 codebases. If you didn't do this intermediate step, then you would have 70 codebases. Make sense?
 
I studied informatics and was interested in compilers in one semester, so I think I understood
 
@JoeDred The first C++ compiler actually produced C text files as output, and then built those. It was using C as its "IL", and then because C could be built on many platforms it took advantage of that.
But because the C compiler wasn't running "in memory" with the C process, this had a lot of overhead. The C++ compiler would read your source, process it, forget everything it knew and take the time to dump out C files. Then the C compiler would turn around and read all those in again, relearn things, process it, and probably do the same thing again to make its IL files.
Intermediate languages tend to have different requirements from their source languages, and they don't use the same notation or parse trees. Many of them aren't things you can even program in source with...they're binary formats, not intended for human programmer use.
 
6:22 AM
Just like bytecode (Im more familiar with java)?
 
Red is trying to make its intermediate language fairly user friendly. It is a bit like programming in C, except using Rebol-like idioms. So you don't have to change how you write your IF structures or your CASE structures to use it.
Bytecodes are similar, the distinction being whether that gets compiled to processor-specific instructions or run on a VM
Rebol and Red are already written to permit easy meta-coding.
@RebolBot
code: ["Hello" print]
probe code
reverse code
probe code
do code
replace code "Hello" "Goodbye"
probe code
do code
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
["Hello" print]
[print "Hello"]
Hello
[print "Goodbye"]
Goodbye
 
Because of the ability to build code structures and manipulate them already exists for the block type, it's extra convenient for Red's IL to just be built on the same foundation. Red can just build Red/System code structures in memory and have the Red/System compiler included... there's no separate "Red/System" executable. It's just a subroutine in red.exe.
 
I really aprecciate your explanations and your effort to bring this toolchain to my understanding. But I have to work now.

Nevertheless a lot is clearer now. Very very much thanks
 
Red goes further with Rebol's rejection of needing tons of tools and DLLs and intermediate files to accomplish what many programming tasks need. So that's central to the mission. red.exe needs to clock in a <1 megabyte and still be able to do quite a lot with nothing else.
Ok dokie, TTYL. Watch the video! German subtitles included.
 
6:29 AM
Ill doo
do
Ill be back again soon with more silly questions ;)
 
I see dockimbel posted about a docker container being written for cheyenne
So docker is like some type of VM?
So, you'd package your app inside docker .. and run it as an application rather then running a separate vm?
@HostileFork and is that something that would work with softcover?
or for a compilation environment for Rebol?
 
@HappySpoon I saw the docker homepage, I do not know specifically what it does.
Many years ago I prophesied that network protocols between virtual machines were going to beat the idea of anyone being able to actually design a decent OS. blog.hostilefork.com/virtualization-and-the-integrated-circuit
So in my hard drive zero quest, I spent an evening deleting old emulator roms and disks that I had downloaded in college around 1996.
I found them somewhere around finals right before I graduated, and used the fast college internet connection to download lots and lots of them, especially Commodore 64 stuff.
When I got home, I had a couple of weeks to kill before I had to leave for my job, and I went through and began sorting and looking through them. They've hung around since then on some disk or another, though I hadn't touched them since.
 
6:50 AM
Docker is more like a wrapper tool to manage standard linux virtualisation containers
You can get a whole ubuntu docker image and run it if you want or just package up a small app with a minimal distro to save space and memory
It also has great management features for looking after the images
 
@johnk So, you wouldn't need Hyper-V manager to run it; it just runs as a windows app.
Sounds that what we needed to run Altme on linux!
 
I think docker is linux only as it relies on the native containers .. no windows
A guy at the Sydney linux users group did a nice overview of it (although it makes a long youtube video)
 
@johnk there's a windows installer :)
 
ah .. The windows version runs the docker images on linux under VirtualBox
(warning: I haven't watched the video, I don't think they edit them at all - more like a stream of the whole meeting)
Just checking it out. The sound seems ok. Robert is a smart guy and knows a lot about docker. He gives a good overview.
 
@johnk I'm committing Red's branding repo, and I'd prefer it if RedBot used that icon to the one it's using now, if you wouldn't mind changing it back.
 
7:05 AM
@HostileFork no worries. I'll do it tonight when I get home
 
@johnk ok, I'll check it out
red> print "what is my icon now?"
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
what is my icon now?
 
Hmm. I like the current one better!
 
Too bad!
 
Hmm.
 
7:07 AM
The brackets aren't going in the branding, so the document icons aren't using them/etc.
 
>> print "what do I think?"
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
what do I think?
 
I like the symmetry of the bots
 
The bots are representatives of the languages they speak.
In the end they are not their own brand.
 
red-lang.org doesn't even have a favicon
 
7:11 AM
@HostileFork red-block! is the structure defined in the Red runtime of the data stored in the "value slot" for a Red block!. You would only use it if you wanted to access a Red block from Red/System.
 
@HappySpoon Looks like you can set it in blogger. I raised an issue.
@HappySpoon The greater issue is that with brands, you sort of have to establish your look and use it consistently. If you're changing it all the time or it's not obvious that is "yours" then other people will use it. If you use it consistently then people will not want to overlap with you and they will think of something else.
It's nice that there are lots of variations to choose from, because the theme is versatile, but that just gives unofficial channels lots of ways to present. I think that given the limited number of channels, and our ability to grant permission to RedBot, that it should be as official as it can be.
RebolBot doesn't have brackets because it's a bot; it has brackets because Rebol does.
 
Actually they have brackets because you drew them that way
 
Well, we have gone through a lot of different iterations. And some have not looked as good. It took time.
(NOTE to @johnk... don't use that one --^ just pointing out that we've gone through a lot of iterations.) The new ratios and distances for the tower are good, we haven't switched back to the white-on-red incarnation since that has all been worked out.
Anyway, with the branding submissions in the repository, I'm providing all kinds of file formats and Nenad can make the say on what work people do or choices after that. But I'd like to get it to at least one on-the-record version of "here was my conclusion". And then all the files are off my HD and I don't worry about it any more.
There's SVG, AI, PNG, PSD, and Fireworks. Ratios explained:
 
8:01 AM
Yuck. This new Yosemite thing with color icons on the folders is garish.
Was checking to see if they'd changed the document template. Looks like they haven't.
 
 
1 hour later…
9:03 AM
I always had a soft spot for newicons
Topaz was not the greatest font though
 
@johnk did you size your inverter for your array, or did you oversize to allow for future expansion?
 
9:31 AM
@HappySpoon I was advised against doing that
 
From what I can tell, I can only run a max of 13 panels in series
I'd need to run another series
which means the inverter will need more than one connection on it.
So if I want to upsize in the future, I should get a different inverter
or, just install a new system in the future when prices fall even more.
 
I can recommend whirlpool as a great source of information to help
 
10:17 AM
distributed power generation can make the network prone to cascading failures
Probably have to be an EE to understand all the nuances of these things. Hmm. Didn't we have an EE on here once?
 
11:12 AM
I think there would be better economics in centralizing battery backups, to avoid users storing coal power in batteries. Curiously, though, the idea of using batteries to flatten power fluctuations from renewables hasn't really caught on yet here in Denmark, where we have a large amount of wind power.
 
@HappySpoon I find that hard to believe. What is easy to believe is that large power companies with a business model centred around being the key producers are seeing their business model eroded. This in combination with a general reduction in heavy industry in western countries due to offshore manufacturing means that solar is hurting them more than ever
Ok, #rant mode off#
 
Just seems a shame that you install an array of PV panels, but if there is a power failure, your inverter stops producing power as well.
Perhaps I'd feel a happier spoon if I had a hybrid system
 
@HappySpoon I would do the same, but I would need a larger roof which is hard to achieve in central Sydney.
 
I don't have a problem with roof space :)
 
Or I could chop down the beautiful gum trees shading the back half of my house ...
 
11:18 AM
burn them for heat
renewable energy
and grow some new ones :)
 
It was 25C here yesterday. You just have to love Sydney winters
I hate wasting time on computers just had to hard bounce my pi then spent an hour trying to work out why the solar monitoring software wouldn't restart. Ended up have to read the source code. Fixed now, but the time is lost ...
 
and the issue was ?
 
I'm looking forward to playing with the new red release. Not long now :)
@HappySpoon the hard reboot left a data file in an inconsistent state. Cleaned up the incomplete file and voila
@HostileFork icon updated
 
 
1 hour later…
12:57 PM
red> print "How do I look?"
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
How do I look?
 
Looking good.
red> print "Thanks!"
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
Thanks!
 
>> print "You look more unique now, @redbot"
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
You look more unique now, @redbot
 
1:37 PM
Okay, everyone who was asking for document icons, they're not only PR'd against the Red branding repository but I actually went and made the resolutions...and there's your .ICNS format.
 
1:54 PM
posted on August 01, 2014 by qtxie

FIX: remove unnecessary PI definition in TESTS.

 
At that step "7" above is probably the point to drop the text on the icon. But anyway, it can all be fine tuned once people start using it!
I know it may seem like a small thing. But we have to get rid of the chmod +x step.
And in general, there is a very big message issue. That issue is that we are living in a world that is increasingly asking you to disregard complexity--"just upload it all to a service in the cloud"--"who cares how big it is or if you can read the source"--"trust us, it's under control..." vs. something you can really hold in your hand and in your mind.
 
 
1 hour later…
3:32 PM
0
A: Mac OS X document icon template?

HostileForkYou can turn a directory full of .PNG files into an .ICNS or vice-versa using iconutil. It comes with OS/X and is a command-line program: https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/documentation/Darwin/Reference/Manpages/man1/iconutil.1.html You can also use Preview to extract individual PNGs out...

 
4:14 PM
Am looking again at using via to get it working with Rebol 2 Core. Two things currently vexing me: 1) want to specify ascii record/field separators as delimiters ("^!^_")—apparently can do the latter, but newlines are hardcoded as record delimiters; 2) want column names included with the results—unfortunately it seems the only way to do this is .mode lines that includes column names with every record. Yeuch.
Unless I'm missing something, doesn't seem I'd be able to satisfactorily resolve either issue.
Is it possible, or might it be an idea to write a command-line wrapper for SQLite in Red (or Rebol 3) that returns results in Rebol format?
Can Red process STDIN at this point?
Doesn't seem like fun whichever route.
(and boo on Rebol 2 Core for not having library access)
 
@rgchris If your question can be framed as a non-Rebol StackOverflow question, that's probably the best place to ask it.
 
@HostileFork I thought about asking there first, but I'm pretty sure this is a RTFM question and I've RTFM and it's seemingly as I fear. So, I guess I'm wondering out loud if it's possible to write an adequate replacement for the SQLite command-line tool in Rebol or Red. One that just takes a query and returns a result.
 
4:34 PM
@rgchris Well, if the central point of your question is "can I use something besides newline as a record separator in SQLite" I can look at the source and tell you
#define MODE_Line     0  /* One column per line.  Blank line between records */
#define MODE_Column   1  /* One record per line in neat columns */
#define MODE_List     2  /* One record per line with a separator */
#define MODE_Semi     3  /* Same as MODE_List but append ";" to each line */
#define MODE_Html     4  /* Generate an XHTML table */
So MODE_Line requires column names in the record? Odd.
 
0
Q: Is it possible to change the record separator used with the SQLite Command-Line utility?

rgchrisI know it's possible to set the field separator using the .separator command, is it possible to do the same with the record separator? For example, to specify 0x1E be used to separate records to match 0x1F used for separating fields.

I'm not exactly sure what I want to ask for the second question—something to the effect of getting column name/metadata at the head of the results listing, and not relying on the table schemas to interpret results (that'd get complicated with JOINs, etc.).
 
4:49 PM
  char separator[20];    /* Separator character for MODE_List */
  char newline[20];      /* Record separator in MODE_Csv */
Love those hardcoded random numbers. The SQLite codebase looks like a minefield
So the CSV thing is output only
 
Think it applies to input as well if you choose to dump CSV into a table instead of form an SQL INSERT query.
But I'm not interested in that.
 
@rgchris Is there a reason you can't put something else in the stored strings that isn't a newline and translate it out?
That suggests parentheses take care of it, I guess I don't know enough about the nature of the problem to understand where the block is.
You are writing an insert statement, and newlines in values are ending records, but it seems that insert statements I see examples of do one record at a time and are enclosed in parentheses
 
5:09 PM
There's not much of a block, per se—just trying to evaluate the different aspects of how it works.
 
5:20 PM
@rgchris - re your remark towards the library access. IIRC, both library access as well as command call access, were released for free lately ...
 
@pekr In Rebol/Core? Using 2.7.8 I have CALL access, but not library...
** Script Error: Feature not available in this REBOL
** Where: sqlite-func
** Near: make routine! specs library join
 
 
1 hour later…
6:32 PM
sorry then. I found following in one old changelog - View 2.7.7. - View/Pro features enabled: allowing SSL, ODBC, and encryption
Maybe it was enabled in View only? Or maybe I am wrong and library access is not free, dunno ...
 
 
1 hour later…
7:47 PM
@pekr It appears to be View only.
 
8:31 PM
I want to make a loop that takes a string of many characters, picks the first thirteen characters from the start, makes them into integer, and calculates the product, then knock first one character off the string and do the same till there not 13 characters left
how do i use the pick function to select the 13 characters
 
>> copy/part "abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxzy" 13
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== "abcdefghijklm"
 
is there a digital copy download of 'Rebol for Dummies'? I feel as if the free tutorials are not so good
 
8:53 PM
to multiply each element in series I do what? forall hol [ ]. What do I put in the brackets?
 
9:18 PM
>> prod: 1 foreach elem [1 2 3 4] [prod: prod * elem]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== 0
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== 24
 
@user3398747 ^^
 
okay thanks
 
9:54 PM
@rgchris rebol/command has /library in it .. never made free as far as I know.
well, it was, but it's called rebol3
 
Hello!
Concerning sqlite, I've been using the btn driver for a while with Rebol2.
I'm on my téléphone now: I'll come back here tomorrow, I'll write the URLs and some examples.
 
10:57 PM
https://github.com/red/red/pull/889
GitHub
Red Pull Req—FIX: use %.16g for printing float! value.
qtxie
1406912230
 

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