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2:51 AM
@HappySpoon Lack of implementation of refinements besides /wait?
 
@HostileFork ok. If we use call in a slave process, that's not a big deal.
 
 
1 hour later…
4:17 AM
 
@Brett Rebol2 vs Rebol3?
 
@HappySpoon Rebol scored highly in the article. I haven't done enough Rebol 3 to comment on how it compares with Rebol 2 ;-)
 
@Brett I'm just thinking that if they're measuring commits to repositories, and it's recent, then it's pretty much all rebol3 these days.
 
Yeah probably. Either way just needs to be more popular!
 
though I do admit to uploading some old rebol2 code to github
 
4:30 AM
@HappySpoon You must have a few lines of code after what 15 years?
 
@Brett My app is over 100k LOC
 
That's quite a bit of rebol functionality.
 
@Brett yeah .. amazing what you can do
though the code base is now so large that it's easier for me to rewrite things than to figure out what I've written before.
 
@HappySpoon That's disturbing. Is that a function of your coding or your memory?
 
@Brett well, I think that a rewrite should always be better .. right?
 
4:35 AM
Probably. Each old program I look at that I've written, I think why did I do that?
Hindsight, new experience, different perspectives are wonderful things
 
So, for instance I interact with http APIs in my app. I'm rewriting those now to move them to slave processes so they no longer block the GUI.
 
Yes I think for me too, rewriting stuff tends to be about clarifying things better.
@HappySpoon Btw, on HTTP, I'm still fiddling around with my Trello interface thing. Can you point me to a scheme that does Put, Delete, etc. Preferrably working in Rebol 2 at the moment. I'm still trying to decide what the inteface should look like.. a bunch of objects or some dialect thing. The api sort of is clear, except for weird bits.
I don't want to use curl, just native Rebol to do the Rest calls.
 
4:54 AM
@Brett Nenad cited that RedMonk study in the What is Red talk...
 
@Brett this is my version of the prot-http delete, and put.
 
@HostileFork Didn't see it at the time. Interesting article. Also interesting was the comment that the Rails framework popularised a language that would otherwise have not taken off.
@HappySpoon Thank you.
 
My beaglebone black has arrived .. now only need to find time to unwrap the parcel!
 
94
Q: Why is GHC so large/big?

Christopher DoneIs there a simple answer: Why is GHC so big? OCaml: 2MB Python: 15MB SBCL: 9MB OpenJRE - 26MB GHC: 113MB Not interested in evangelism of "Why I shouldn't care about the size if Haskell is the right tool"; this is a technical question.

 
@HappySpoon What are you going to do with it?
 
5:03 AM
@Brett install Asterisk :)
And a fax server if I can.
 
Well good luck!
 
 
2 hours later…
8:16 AM
@johnk Someone should tell him about "us".
 
9:04 AM
Haskell's "Hoogle" is pretty cool if you haven't seen it you can search for functions or even search for things that take certain types
NPM and Hackage have started this trend of a module master repository where you come up with some package format and then members of the community provide a name for their library and a GitHub repository in the format. Commits to git don't automatically update it, you have to tell the package management system "ready to do a new version now"
With the module headers and function specification dialects, there's potential for getting such a thing done nicely in Rebol/Red.
 
That would be great.
 
9:25 AM
@ShixinZeng I've not followed libffi. How "heavy" is it? If it were packaged up and linked into Rebol core with previous extension methods removed, do you have an idea what the delta in source/binary would be (offhand)?
Doesn't look too bad, e.g. for x86, some C some assembly.
 
9:40 AM
The tide against tabs for indentation seems to really be strong. If you have stock in tabs, you should sell it now.
 
10:00 AM
Dang, I just got a new tab key
 
@HappySpoon trading ratios for tabs to spaces are currently 1 to 4, though. So like I say--you should cash in now.
I have yet to see a Haskell tutorial that explained what putting an apostrophe on the end of an identifier means.
It doesn't mean anything... it's just part of the name. Like foo' is "foo prime". But they never say that. And they also never really mention that when they do it, it's usually because the standard library already has a foo defined.
>> foo': "Illegal"
 
10:15 AM
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
== "Illegal"
 
Oh, I didn't think you could do that..
>> foo': "Legal" print foo'
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
Legal
 
>> type? first ['foo']
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
== lit-word!
 
 
3 hours later…
1:07 PM
@HostileFork libffi is pretty light, the static library on linux is about 58k
 
1:19 PM
32k for ARM linux
 
 
7 hours later…
8:15 PM
@HostileFork And Python's PyPI, and Ruby's Gems, and Lua's Rocks, and Perl's CPAN, and ... :)
(If we just stay in the scripting realm :)
@HostileFork Hoogle is extremely cool, yes. Nice thing: it can also be directly integrated into e.g. GHCi: haskell.org/haskellwiki/GHC/GHCi#Hoogle
> "Functions used as higher-order arguments are typically named starting at f, g, etc. They will sometimes be decorated with numbers like type variables and will also be decorated with the ' character like g'. You would read this latter example as "Jee-prime" and it is typically a function that is in some way related to g used as a helper or the like."

(Source: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/How_to_read_Haskell#Tip:_types.2C_functions_and_values)
And that finishes our irregularly scheduled Haskell intermissions :)
 
I think Haskell is worth thinking about and talking about here, because if you are trying to appeal to people who want to "think outside the box" in terms of "hey you have been programming in the Matrix and you should wake up"... Haskell has a lot of traction with people as being that answer.
Rightly or wrongly, in my opinion. I haven't been all that blown away. It doesn't seem to be some order of magnitude better than other FP languages as far as I can tell.
 
I don't think that orders of magnitudes compared to other FP languages is really the goal.
 
9
Q: Haskell -- any way to qualify or disambiguate record names?

gatoatigradoI have two data types, which are used for hastache templates. It makes sense in my code to have two different types, both with a field named "name". This, of course, causes a conflict. It seems that there's a mechanism to disambiguate any calls to "name", but the actual definition causes problems...

No one could have seen that coming...
 
8:31 PM
Although lazyness (and the induced additional "purity") is as formidable a holy war as any, I think most people favouring Haskell wouldn't hit you with a "in-the-box thinker" bat if you chose to use another modern FP language (probably either mainly from the ML or Lisp families).
 
In looking for intersections I still think that Ren is probably the place to start.
It's interesting to see their map/fmap/liftM issue. But it does re-iterate your point about map to create a mapped data type as being a likely poor use of the word.
I wonder if a modifying "filter" is a better name than remove-each
 
Maybe
 
The focus on what you want to remove vs. what you want to keep comes from Rebol's modify-by-default, but it's just another case of "being weird" notationally and behaviorally.
 
I'm not totally convinced, that using rather "standard" functional names would be the best option, given that Rebol's implementations are more naturally done in a "comprehension-style" with explicit names.
I don't think the -each particularly elegant, but it is somewhat appropriate.
From a "regular" FILTER (or MAP) I'd expect them to take a function as a parameter. Which is somewhat quirky and feels unnatural in Rebol.
 
filter [1 2 3 4 5] [/x (x >= 3)] => [3 4 5] ?
When I did that thing for Rubol I didn't consider refinements, which is what I probably should have used
 
8:48 PM
Non-standard, but thought-inspiring.
Refinements are a brilliant idea, for this purpose.
 
I'll at least backpatch that into Rubol. Which, really, I should just go back and fix because I wrote that before I knew much
Rubol is an example of "oh yeah, well can Haskell do this"
With a perhaps slight possibility of making a Ruby programmer go. "Oh. Hmmmm."
I have been looking at how to implement a Haskell equivalent of the Qt Mandelbrot sample. It is non-obvious, as it involves both GUI/worker thread separation and functional reactive programming. Concurrent Haskell is GHC-only it would seem.
Other Haskell weirdness: foo.bar can mean "select bar out of import namespace foo" or "compose function foo with function bar"
Proving people really tolerate almost anything with dots, and that the slash notation is probably a real weak spot for Rebol's paths. x: [a: 10 b: 20] print x.a would have probably gone over better.
 
9:26 PM
Hm, filter
>> do http://box.lebeda.ws/~rebolek/rebol/swymir.r
filter [1 2 3 4 5] [x >= 3]
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
== [3 4 5]
 
>> do http://box.lebeda.ws/~rebolek/rebol/swymir.r
filter [1 2 3 4 5] [i-don't-like-x-and-want-to-use-something-else >= 3]
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
== [3 4 5]
 
@RebolBot
do http://box.lebeda.ws/~rebolek/rebol/swymir.r
filter [1 3 4 5 6 7] [x > power 2 2]
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
== [5 6 7]
 
9:34 PM
>> do box.lebeda.ws/~rebolek/rebol/swymir.r
filter [1 2 3 4 5] [3 <= foo]
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
== [3 4 5]
 
Hehe, buggy :)
or no, I'm just tired :)
nice to see this four year old code still works :)
 
>> do box.lebeda.ws/~rebolek/rebol/swymir.r
filter [1 2 3 4 5] [true]
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
ERROR: zero length
== [2 3 4 5]
 
@RebolBot
x: 1
do http://box.lebeda.ws/~rebolek/rebol/swymir.r
filter [1 3 4 5 6 7] [x > power 2 2]
 
9:37 PM
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
ERROR: zero length
== [3 4 5 6 7]
 
Seems more like a dwim project than a swym one. :-) I don't think guessing will work.
 
>> do http://box.lebeda.ws/~rebolek/rebol/swymir.r
filter serie [1 2 .. 10] [[x > 4][x < 6]]
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
== [5]
 
@HostileFork It was an experiment, I had no usage for it, so I had not developed it further.
 
Well, maybe blocks with refinements leading could be useful. Doesn't address your block-of-blocks case, but I think it's probably best to be explicit there with an ANY or ALL /etc. anyway.
@RebolBot
do http://box.lebeda.ws/~rebolek/rebol/swymir.r
filter serie [1 2 .. 10] [/x all [(x > 4) (x < 6)]]
 
9:48 PM
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
== [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10]
 
do not expect it to work with the leading refinement
 
Thought it would just be ignored
>> /x print "Hi"
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
Hi
 
no, it checks if first value is block and when not, it treats whole block as one condition
it can be rewritten to use the refinement as variable name, though
 
@RebolBot
x: 5
print (/x all [(x > 4) (x < 6)])
 
9:51 PM
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
true
 
>> do http://box.lebeda.ws/~rebolek/rebol/swymir.r
x: 1
filter/with [1 2 3 4 5] [x >= 3] 'x
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
== [3 4 5]
 

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