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4:00 AM
@Shog9 Ergo, no chance of turning down inflammatory redirect, and no chance of community improving the post
 
@jpmc26 I imagine answers are.
 
user4639281
@Shog9 I'd say that the mods actions in response to the edits to this post deviate from that policy
 
there are 25 not-deleted answers.
 
some good readin' there too
 
Joel is not more likely to read them all than he is to read through 200+ deleted comments.
 
4:01 AM
Keep in mind, there's also a full revision log
Every edit, ever revision comment, is maintained and visible
 
user4639281
So we are required to request permission to edit the post, but we are not allowed to request permission to edit the post?
 
That the vast majority wont ever look at...
 
Why would anyone ask permission to edit the post?
 
user4639281
Because we were told by moderators that we were required to request permission before editing
 
Because we think it's unnecessarily inflammatory and it's the only hope we had of getting it toned down?
2
 
4:02 AM
Yeah, which is why I dropped into this room a while back.
 
also because mods suggested it since they didn't want to let edits be done without it.
 
user4639281
I'm really confused, are we allowed to follow policy now or not?
 
no.
 
So far, I've gathered that the post is possibly insulting to folks whose deeply-held beliefs include the wisdom of yesterday's executive order, who might be hypothetical.
@TinyGiant policy being, "every edit is a judgement call, don't go to war over a crust of bread"?
 
I found the post insulting.
 
4:04 AM
I guess you win, Shog. I'm only left with, "Shut up," like I said. Because apparently I'm better at convincing users this content is derisive than I am SO employees and mods.
 
@Shog9 Seriously? You really want to go down that route?
 
sigh...
8 mins ago, by Shog9
Jeff Atwood on April 8, 2009
Editing is the backbone of Stack Overflow, and probably (along with the reputation system) one of the single most important distinctions between Stack Overflow and "just another forum".
 
user4639281
@Shog9 Policy being "it should be left up to the OP if the OP is reasonably active to rollback the edit"
 
@Shog9 Calling them hypothetical is like calling Trump supporters hypothetical.
 
You want to edit the post, edit the post. If your edit is rolled back, then stop editing. If you're about to make an edit that's fundamentally the same as one that's already been rolled back, stop editing.
@jpmc26 no, it's not.
Again, we're not holding a referendum on Trump here.
We're discussing a specific policy
 
user4639281
4:06 AM
@Shog9 Yet the OP has not rolled back any edits
 
A specific policy that he ran on.
 
user4639281
It is only misguided moderators rolling back edits
 
Its just kind of hard for me to take this seriously when many people are pointing out that this post is inflammatory and the mod position is that possibly there are hypothetical people who may exist
 
@TinyGiant Looks like a moderator and an employee have.
 
I think it's time for me to lay this one to rest. It's clear that the decision has been made to leave it as is. Nobody's gotten anywhere with convincing anyone of anything, and now it's 0400.
 
user4639281
4:06 AM
I'm perfectly fine if Joel disagrees with the edit, but right now it is impossible for me to find out of Joel would be OK with it or not.
 
Yo
 
user4639281
I must request permission before editing the post, yet am disallowed from requesting permission.
 
@TinyGiant it is entirely possible. When Joel sees the edit, if he thinks it's an improvement, he can restore it.
 
Currently on a bicycle but I think I explained my reasoning pretty clearly
 
@meagar this is a terrifying way to start a sentence
 
4:08 AM
Getting into an edit war with a moderator in the meantime is not going to improve the chances of the post being edited. It will improve the chances of the post being locked.
 
user4639281
@Shog9 It is extremely likely that he will never see the edit
 
user4639281
@Shog9 The moderator and employee were acting against site policy to roll the edits back.
 
good grief... I'm talking to the folks who usually remind me of all the obscure little features of the site I've long forgotten about, and somehow y'all are forgetting how editing works?
If you own a post, you get notified of edits.
 
user4639281
meagar even said that they knew they were acting against site policy when rolling the edit back
 
(Unless they're extremely trivial)
 
user4639281
4:09 AM
@Shog9 I've never been notified of an edit to my post on meta
 
The edit I rolled back was pointless and trivial
 
user4639281
@meagar Not your decision to make
 
And I asked that further edits be left to Joel
 
user4639281
And contrary to site policy
 
I guarantee you, Joel has an inbox message right now that tells him the question was edited. Given it's something like 11PM in NYC, I doubt he'll read it tonight, but it's there.
 
4:10 AM
@meagar yeah... thats not cool. Since when are edits only left to the OP? Apparently since the CEO decides to stand on a soap box.
 
made my feelings pretty clear
 
user4639281
@Shog9 I'd imagine that is along with the countless other inbox messages he is unlikely to read. Wasn't it you that said editing was a form of communication?
 
@TinyGiant yup. Hence the inbox message.
 
Statements by CEO on his own platform can wait for CEO to clarify or change his statements
 
He has... Fewer unread messages than I do right now, which is somewhat embarrassing.
 
user4639281
4:12 AM
@meagar That is contrary to site policy
 
Speaking of the time...
 
All I wanted is for SO to be what this post says it wants to be: a place where people can come and share ideas and learn from each other freely, without having to worry about being shouted down or insulted while they express their ideas.
 
user4639281
Lock the damn post if you don't want anyone to edit it
2
 
...I am going to lock the post if y'all get into an edit war over it.
Which means no one can write any answers.
 
Yes, I agreeed last time and every time you've point that out and I agree now . I made a judgement call, will happily continue to own up to it
 
user4639281
4:13 AM
Why not just lock it anyways? It's locked in spirit as it is
 
So it'd be a real shame if someone here had a crushing rebuttal in mind and instead spent their time getting the post locked.
@TinyGiant "in spirit" being "folks can write answers, but their spirit demands they argue in comments instead"?
 
Probably should be locked... We're sitting here sorta pretending this is a regular post that can be edited, but to me it seems clear it is not.
 
Believe me, if I could lock it without blocking new answers, I'd have done that about 6 hours ago
 
user4639281
@Shog9 No in spirit meaning that all editing is currently disallowed.
 
user4639281
Damn it just delete it so we can be done with all of this nonsense. The deviation from policy offends me deeply.
 
4:15 AM
I left it unlocked because, as I see it, the real value in having something like this on meta is that folks can actually respond. As in, write answers that can be voted on, commented on, etc. That's something that can't be had in a blog post or twitter message.
 
user4639281
@Shog9 People that agree are encouraged to respond, people that disagree are discouraged from responding
 
@Shog9 Blogs don't have discussion sections that can be voted on and responded to? Since when?
 
@DavidGrinberg have you seen our blog?
It's Disqus.
Voting doesn't actually do anything
Other than encourage cliques, since none of it is anonymous
 
user4639281
I have this entire time been for having the meta post, for his political stance, but strongly against the offensive wording used in his meta post, but now I'm just so damned fed up with all the double standards and bickering that I just want it gone so it doesn't derail the site anymore.
 
@Shog9 What kind of responses to this post are you expecting?
The post doesn't invite any kind of discussion.
It's basically an announcement of Joel's personal opinion.
 
4:18 AM
I dont really know what you're talking about @Shog9
You can sort by votes and all in Disqus
 
@DavidGrinberg stackoverflow.blog
 
Yeah, I know the URL. My point is voting does have an effect
 
@DavidGrinberg how?
 
Sort by best
 
Rob
This whole transcript is probably a good argument for not having these kinds of posts stickied on SO.
2
Or even at all, stickied or not.
 
4:19 AM
@DavidGrinberg Open the page in a browser where you aren't logged in. What appears first?
 
It sorts by newest first... so? I can still switch it to sort by best.
 
I hardly think we should let people endlessly complaining dictate what topic we should discuss.
 
This whole transcript is an argument for moving stuff to chat sooner, since I'm pretty sure we're all just repeating stuff that got said yesterday.
Anyway, I'm going to bed, because strictly-speaking I don't have to work weekends while I do have to work tomorrow.
 
Rob
@Shog9 Did the chat really accomplish anything, though? People are still debating whether or not it should exist. People are still pissed off about the language in the post. People are still pissed off about the breach of policy. Mods are tired of explaining things over and over again. No one is winning here, nothing changed.
Night
 
user4639281
@Shog9 You mean people have been saying that the wording of the post is offensive for approximately two days and it has yet to be changed? Wow
 
4:22 AM
If I wake up and find y'all arguing in comments again or getting into edit wars, I'll either lock the post or suspend whoever is involved. Not joking. Write answers.
8
 
I'm kind of insulted. No one has been doing any of those things.
 
user4639281
^ agree
 
We did write answers. They didn't do any good. We made a separate meta post. Didn't do any good.
 
user4639281
The only ones making irresponsible edits are the mods
 
user4639281
@jpmc26 we made multiple separate meta posts to no avail
 
4:23 AM
People proposed very mild edits, which were rolled back.
We used downvotes and close votes, and politely advocated for more civil discourse.
I wouldn't be surprised if someone flagged the post; I didn't bother trying because I doubted it would have a different result.
I even sat here for hours waiting for an SO employee to come back so I could try to explain that inflammatory content is bad for the community, something I wouldn't have expected needed explaining.
We have all bent over backwards trying to handle this the right way.
I honestly don't know what other legitimate action we could've tried, and I see no indication anyone who wants the inflammatory content removed intended to do anything out of line.
 
Good grief - he's the CEO, so that post is the equivalent of a press release. You can't go tweaking it like it's just any old meta post. You'll have to wait for him to tweak it or someone he specifically instructs to do so. Your best bet to be heard now is to register your complaint in an Answer. And make it good, polite, and to the point. And then take a break from Stack Overflow for 24 hours or so and get a little perspective. - again, personal non-mod opinion.
 
If it's a press release, why is it on Meta.SO instead of the blog or some other venue?
 
Don't ask me, I just found out about it this afternoon.
 
@AaronHall And I posted an answer as soon as I could piece one together. Am I supposed to delete and repost it or something?
 
user4639281
@jpmc26 I currently have an active flag on the past.
 
4:31 AM
never repost the same answer. Feel free to post a new different one - that's within the rules.
 
user4639281
@AaronHall Yeah but him being a CEO doesn't give moderators license to violate site policy with no clear directive from him to do so
 
I don't have anything additional to say.
 
user4639281
@AaronHall Actually no, I completely disagree with everything you say in that message and I think flies in the face of the site policy.
 
And I've been polite. I've done everything I can to listen and to be reasonable and to try to communicate my concerns and to justify them. Why does everyone keep emphasizing polite?
I'm the one saying that posts need to be polite to each other, in accordance with site policy... =/
 
isn't the post primarily opinion based
why are moderators not deleting it
they used to delte every post so far
 
user4639281
4:34 AM
@jpmc26 Because disagreeing with moderators is considered impolite, didn't you know?
 
making it difficult for someone to ask
 
I'm reminding you to be polite because being impolite gives your critics an easy excuse to shut you down.
 
showing that they are elit
*elite
 
@SurajJain Because it's Joel's. The CEO of the company. Literally, that's the only reason anyone can give.
 
oh..
these moderaotrs
dont do their stuff
who has more repution or highe status is allowed to do everything
 
4:35 AM
If you genuinely don't believe that's reason enough then there's not much to say
 
1250 upvotes
it is the reason
 
@SurajJain Saying they delete "every" post so far is a bit of a sweeping statement, isn't it?
 
See, even random Suraj coming in here gets in 30 seconds what the SO staff can't figure out after an hour of discussion.
 
user4639281
@SurajJain that is not true, no, he's the CEO that's the only reason
 
i know
Thanks jmpc26
i am a user who has been alot of times ignore d here
people with status are gieven imprtanvce
 
4:36 AM
@AaronHall It's worse than a press release. It starts with "I" not "we". For the longest time I genuinely looked up to SE as a company and even had a mind to apply there. Right now I'd be afraid to work there if I had an opinion that wasn't Joel's.
 
considered a an elite.
 
user4639281
The post is blatantly off-topic and offensive, but it is allowed and must be kept in its exact condition because it was written by the owner of the website
 
user4639281
If it had been written by Jon Skeet, it would have been deleted, or at least less offensive
 
@AaronHall Thank you for the advice, then.
 
all developers here ,, you are all taleneted enough to make clone of stackoverflow even better than it
why dont you all try
 
4:37 AM
@TinyGiant I'd back off for a bit. A lot of us feel that way, too, and anybody who can hear the complaint has. At this point we need to have patience and tact.
 
I rather like it here @SurajJain
And I can't really be bothered with a clone of the site. That's a lot of effort in an already saturated market...
 
@SurajJain clones already exist
 
notr all are equal here but
 
@JasonC Actually, our only available options are start defying mods and staff or give up. I don't have any intention of pursuing the former.
 
user4639281
@JasonC Meh, you're free to do as you please.
 
4:38 AM
clones do exist , but there is not enough interaction tehre
 
@TinyGiant: You mentioned "offensive", but I believed my answer to your question had addressed that point.
 
patience becuase owner posted
 
Yeah, I see that, too. The unfortunate reality is we'll just end up suspended, though, and then turn into anti-SE noise on the internet.
 
otherwise it would have been deleted i n seconds
 
Unless we get more than the few dozen people who've been vocal about it on our side.
 
user4639281
4:40 AM
@Makoto Your answer clarified the be-nice policy, but I have not been sufficiently convinced that the post fits within the be-nice policy.
 
Heh, #OccupySO
 
I'm a conservative. I don't like that name. =p lol
 
first, they came for the shitposters, and I did not speak out, for I was not a shitposter
 
Looks like Shog edited out the phrase "stupid", but whether or not someone is directly being attacked or insulted isn't something I can clearly identify.
 
May I suggest something more practical, like tackling Project Euler with assembler?
 
4:41 AM
@jpmc26 Oh it made my eye twitch just typing it. Don't even get me started on my anti-Occupy rants, haha.
 
@aaronhall
what do you mean
 
@AaronHall: As long as it's ARM assembly. I'd like to pretend I have a soul.
 
@Shog9 Thank you for the edit. I don't feel it's enough, but I do appreciate it for being an improvement.
 
^ That
 
@jpmc26 can you update me on what edit ,?
 
4:42 AM
Go back to the question and refresh the page. Check the edit history if you don't see it.
 
user4639281
@AaronHall Sure you can suggest giving up on defending the site policy. Sounds like a really good idea that.
 
Actually on reflection, Kasra's post has a lot more implicit ad hominem than the original discussion ever did...
 
I'll just say it: Kasra is hurting the cause, and needs to just stop.
 
Maybe, but I kind of gave Kasra a pass. He's obviously deeply emotionally upset.
I can wait until he calms down.
 
4:44 AM
these are the culprit
*reopened
 
He's judging the crap out of everybody, and there's real people with actual problems that aren't "hey my grandmother is going to have a slightly longer interview on the way back in, let me turn myself into a martyr for it".
 
Obviously everyone gave him a pass. I'm just saying...if one wants to apply the measuring stick, don't be surprised when it's applied.
 
it's been reopened like 10 times @SurajJain by lots of different people.
 
@JasonC Thans for the link
*thanks
 
you can edit your messages for a few minutes, @SurajJain Try the Up button.
 
user4639281
4:45 AM
 
user4639281
Looks like all attempts to correct that will be shot down.
 
Kasra gets a pass because he's bipolar, extremely upset, and at least coherent. But only to a point.
 
@jpmc26 which edit ?
 
just press the Up button while your cursor is in the message box. You'll see what I mean.
 
@JasonC: I was saying...in stark contrast to Joel's post which does contain vitriol and pointed words, Kasra's actually gives some implicit ad hominem vibes.
 
4:47 AM
I think people are being a little precious by acting like "morally repugnant" is over the line
 
Yes, he's upset. I genuinely hope he's okay.
I hate the fact that he feels this way.
But that doesn't change the post much.
 
@jpmc26 I mean , why should i edit /
 
@SurajJain Chat edits. Two options for editing chat messages. Click in the chat message box then press "up", or you can also hold your mouse over the message, click the little arrow that appears to the left of it, and choose "edit". In either case you only have a few minutes to do it.
 
I mean...if we're going to say that what was posted was clearly an attack on a person...
 
4:47 AM
?
 
if someone mentions morality in an argument, they are getting personal? how are moral issues to be raised then?
 
But y'know, I'm willing to bet that this was hashed over different ways before Shog went off to bed.
 
@SurajJain Stuff like a correction to how you typed "Thanks" or because you want to add something you forgot.
 
@samgak It depends. Are you in the US?
 
@jpmc26 oh ... ok i got it
thanks
@JasonC Thanks
 
user4639281
4:49 AM
I can't believe this. I am actually so offended by the moderators actions here that I am now left to downvoting a post that I mostly agree with because it is the only way I can signal that there is offensive content.
 
Not that I should know what you downvoted @TinyGiant, but you downvoted Kasra's post? :S
 
user4639281
The moderator actions here are morally repugnant and frankly stupid.
 
This site is good except for irs moderators who aren't that good, i would consider equality if that post is deleted
 
user4639281
@Makoto No the main post
 
Okay.
 
4:50 AM
moderators have to save their chair
 
Just wanted to be sure.
 
@samgak It's fine to talk about moral issues, and even about the morality of issues. The problem with opening by asserting a position is immoral is that you immediately shut down the opposing view. No matter how well reasoned or thought out their opinion is, there's nothing they can say that would make you reconsider your position.
 
user4639281
@SurajJain Moderators can decide to follow the site policy
 
@samgak Read the second to last section of my answer at meta.stackoverflow.com/a/342499/616460, the part about soliciting for feedback. That might give some perspective. Then consider what jpmc just said.
 
I'm gonna leave that as a mental note and move on for tonight. Probably lurk for a few more hours.
 
4:50 AM
@TinyGiant Why arent they then?
 
user4639281
Because they can also apparently decide to throw site policy out the window and no one will do anything about it.
 
@SurajJain Fwiw mods are community elected. Afaik none have ever been removed from their position based on political views.
@TinyGiant Lol.
 
some of them are appointed, and several staff members kind of have mod powers everywhere.
 
I just want you guys to consider doing something more productive than argue that the CEO can't post where he wants to. Joel's the 500 lb. gorilla who gets to sit wherever he wants. You're not going to win. I just wasted the last of my waking hours for the day here. Try not to do the same. Good night!
 
Good night, Aaron.
 
user4639281
4:52 AM
@AaronHall The CEO can post whatever he likes, that doesn't give moderators license to throw the site policies out the window.
 
how does asserting that something is morally repugnant shut down a response? dissenters are free to deny it and explain why it is morally defensible
 
@AaronHall "You're not going to win against the boss, so give up" -- kind of an awful sentiment. :P Night, though.
 
user4639281
@samgak Not without fear of being labled as morally repugnant
 
@samgak Because in this case dissenters aren't free to deny it and explain why it's morally defensible if they also want to maintain their social standing.
Especially when said claims come from the CEO of the company, who has significantly more social weight than Joe User, like it or not.
 
@samgak What would be the point? If you've already decided it's immoral, you're not going to learn anything from them. And you're probably not going to tell them anything productive, either. It creates antagonism before they can even make a point.
 
4:54 AM
You know what the quickest way to get your ass kicked in NYC is right now? To talk to somebody in a bar and state that you voted for Trump.
You'll have the whole bar on you in seconds. It's an awful environment.
 
Man, I wish you'd been here when Shog was, Jason.
I haven't been in that environment, luckily for me. So I can't really talk about it.
 
@TinyGiant people are afraid to say what they believe because they're worried about being called names?
 
@samgak Turn it on it's head. People shouldn't have to worry about being called named because they said what they believe.
 
@jpmc26 Haha I've had plenty of long battles with Shog. I totally know what I missed.
 
user4639281
@samgak They are worried about being perceived as scum? Yeah I'd say that's worrying
 
4:56 AM
being told that your opinions are immoral is not the same as social shaming or ostracism
 
ok , i want to say something , i don't know if this is the right place to say it, but if i made a post it would sureley be deleted , i have been on this site since 1 year and 2 months , and what i have observed is that people here are not considered equal there are a lot more chances of a
beginner newcomer question closed than a person with more reputation , question being the same , i myslef asked questions two of which have been awfully downvoted , without any specific reason , one downvote leads to other , even that post is yesterday downvoted , i asked many high reputation person to t
ell me what si wrong in it , i asked jonathen leffler , and he gave me an insight , that people here downvotes like herd , one downvote leads to other , thanks to downvote , i am blcoked to post any more question , just had to take it out .. i hate this site sometime
 
@samgak Not just being called names. It's deeper than that. About being socially outcast. I mean, even in my circle of friends here I've watched long-standing friendships end solely based on this matter. It's crazy.
 
An environment where people reach out to you instead of deriding you or your opinion is the only true definition of "tolerance" and "openness", and also an environment of kindness.
 
it's a necessary corrective in many cases. a lot of people do hold opinions that are immoral, how can that be addressed if saying so crosses the line?
I have mixed feelings on trump btw (I'm not from the USA). I'm glad he cancelled TPP
 
@JasonC wht does shog said ?
 
user4639281
4:58 AM
The real question is: Why is it acceptable to start of a debate by calling one side of the debate morally repugnant and stupid?
 
the problem is, if political discussions are hamstrung by this requirement to be "polite", then people will never make what they believe are their best arguments
 
i think trump is actually doing good , i mean corect me if i am wrong , but that person i have watched his interviews and he seem to be know what he is doing
 
@SurajJain The herd voting effect is one behavior, yeah. It's especially a thing on SO compared to other sites. Another thing is red flags in your post, even unintentional, that may trigger users who have been around a while to make an incorrect quick judgment about it. For example if you put "NullPointerException" in the title expect a dupe closure no matter the content. It's just something you have to deal with gracefully. The smaller network sites don't have problems like that.
 
even when they lose, they will go away thinking "he might have won the debate, but only because I was preventing from making the strongest cases possible by these artificial rules of social acceptability"
 
@samgak Yes that is a huge problem. It stinks.
 
4:59 AM
so no-one ever really changes their minds
 
Welcome to the United States.
 
It's been almost 20 years of social oppression as a culturally acceptable debate strategy. Because it's way easier than the accountability that comes with having to understand somebody and then teach them something.
 
@samgak First of all understand that the person you're talking to might not even agree with your moral framework. This doesn't excuse you from treating them with respect and kindness. Second, if you feel you must call out something as immoral, at least do it on the tail end of explaining what's wrong with it.
 
@JasonC It is downvoted yesterday . i have corrected it .
 
user4639281
5:00 AM
@samgak It's much different if someone posts an answer with such content, but when the debate is started by immediately insulating one side of the argument repeatedly, I think that's a problem
 
@jpmc26 if the difference in our moral framework is the root cause of our disagreement, doesn't it make sense to immediately hone in on that?
 
@JasonC I am blocked to ask any more question , and i have long edited the post to remove all such errors , it even got upvoted , when i asked fellow users who had much more reputaion , they saw an upvoted it
@JasonC But still someone occasionaly downvotes it , even without reading , seeign the already downvoted post
 
but yes, I agree the onus is on the one labelling something immoral to explain why
afk, dinner
 
Sure, but that's not the same thing as saying, "This is immoral. Period, and if you disagree, you're an idiot." and then going on to not explain how you even came to that conclusion.
 
@SurajJain I'm sorry there's too many convos going on in this room at once. If you want feel free to take the question issue over to the tavern chat.meta.stackexchange.com/rooms/89/tavern-on-the-meta
 
user4639281
5:02 AM
@SurajJain how do you know the person didn't read it?
 
@TinyGiant Because i had one conversation wit ha person , and he got angry , and then i see 3 downvotes on all my answer
@TinyGiant I takes time to read
 
So what you guys are talking about now, it really reminds me of a lot of the conflicts between urban and rural areas I see here.
 
user4639281
@SurajJain varying amounts of time for different people, some people read very quickly
 
@TinyGiant You read it , you will not downvote it , i have corrected what ever the errors was long back ago, now only people see downvotes and they downvote it again
 
@SurajJain You have a good answer. The downvotes are probably due to the issues raised in the answer, so it's too late to edit. I'd find a different question to edit.
 
5:03 AM
In NYC, for example, civil rights and liberties is a massive, primary issue. You go back to my hometown outside of Pittsburgh and that stuff doesn't even track. It's simply a non-issue. But those people get labelled "bigots". They aren't bad people, they just don't have the same priorities, nothing more.
 
@jpmc26 Isn't the answer good , i have given my heart to write it , and some days back it got downvoted , can you pleas e come to this chat chat.meta.stackexchange.com/rooms/89/tavern-on-the-meta
 
Just like zero people in NYC spend even a half a second thinking about agricultural campaign platform points. It just isn't part of this world.
In a town where literally everybody is white, of Polish/German/Italian descent, diversity issues are simply not in the thought process. It's not racism. It's just life there. It's the same with anything. You have to stay aware of where the person you are talking to is coming from.
 
user4639281
fwiw:
 
user4639281
I'm voting to close this question as off-topic because this question contains offensive wording and any attempt to remedy this has been shot down by moderators and employees. The wording currently heavily discourages any view that opposes that of the poster, and as such does not seek input and discussion from the community. — Tiny Giant 28 secs ago
 
I wasted my close vote yesterday. xD
I really am sorry you feel like you have to close the question now, in spite of agreeing with it.
I really didn't want it to turn into a massive argument like this. All I wanted was wording that's more open to opposition.
 
5:15 AM
s/opposi/interpreta/
 
@littlepootis I don't think that quite does it. Maybe discussion.
 
user4639281
I also posted this advocating for the outright deletion of the entire thing.
 
user4639281
I'm honestly disgusted by the moderator action in this case. I'm so done trying to be constructive when the moderators and employees obviously have no interest in being constructive about anything. And I don't even disagree with the damn political position presented!
2
 
Lol. Eventually every user on SO will have no more votes to cast on that post. We just have to place bets whether or not the last remaining user will be a close or a reopen.
 
Well I mean, Joel has already reopened it once, so you're kind of banking on him not simply doing so again
 
5:28 AM
mods don't have unlimited power to close/open?
 
We do, yes.
 
@JasonC I think we know how that ends, then.
 
Heh
 
user4639281
@meagar That doesn't stop me from expressing my opinion that the actions taken by the moderators and employees are morally repugnant, frankly stupid, counterproductive, in direct violation of multiple site policies, and are actively serving to disrupt the discussion.
 
I know? I'm not suggesting it could, or should
 
user4639281
5:31 AM
I'm not banking on anyone doing or not doing anything. I'm just expressing my opinion and disgust.
 
Come to think of it, it's kind of funny how Shog kept going on about non-existent opposition when a bunch of us were saying it bothers us in spite of not really disagreeing.
 
I was addressing that comment to Jason.
 
I have a hunch Shog sort of jumped in on damage control a bit late in the game, that's kind of his MO.
 
user4639281
It actually does really bother me, and I actually do otherwise agree with the political position and the post itself.
 
@meagar You mean "Well I mean..."?
 
user4639281
5:33 AM
I'm unsure of what bothers me more, the wording used, or the deviation from policy
 
Sorry got confused here.
 
@TinyGiant I dunno. You seem more bothered by the fact I made an issue of it, to be honest. I know others agreed, but I kind of feel like it's my fault. You wanted to talk about the executive order, but I can't get over the hypocrisy.
 
@JasonC I posted "Well I mean, Joel has already reopened it once..." in response to your comment "Eventually every user on SO will have no more votes to cast on that post..."
 
@meagar Gotcha.
 
user4639281
@jpmc26 I was put off by the wording from the get go. I came into this discussion when I thought it was all about how the post should not exist at all.
 
5:36 AM
@TinyGiant I know what bothers me; I don't even care about the policy. It's the Joel taking advantage of his position and using the site as a completely personal soapbox thing. It's just, inappropriate, policy or not. I mean here, irl, I run a few large events and a social group of ~300 people. I take special care to specifically not use my position to make my views look right or wrong. It just doesn't jive with my values at all.
 
And it's not that I don't want to talk about the issue. I just... want to set the right tone from the get go. That this should be about informing each other, learning, educating ourselves on the facts and on the opinions of others, even the opinions of those who aren't here to share them.
 
user4639281
@jpmc26 I agree with that, and ultimately I wish we could have gotten around the wording without such a fuss, and concede that part of the reason I'm offended by the wording is because of all of the derailment it has caused and the moderator action defending the wording which was causing the derailment.
 
@TinyGiant See, I think that's also related to the problem I just described, too. Like, OK, realistically, the mods are just other people, with opinions like the rest of us. But as soon as they contribute they get railed on. Which is fine. I agree with railing on them. Because the diamonds sort of have a responsibility to not get involved like that. If that makes sense.
I feel like some of the staff/mods/cms don't always accept that the diamond comes with some necessary sacrifices in involvement.
Which I understand. I mean if you're passionate about something it's hard not to say something about it. But... it's sort of a great power, great responsibility thing.
 
user4639281
Well sure, we constantly tell users not to use votes solely in order to invalidate other user's votes, which is exactly what the diamond users are doing. If there was some sort of policy that backed them up, it would be different. Even if someone could point to something by Joel telling the mods to do what they are doing.
 
Do you guys think it was out of line to say they were afraid of Joel?
 
user4639281
5:42 AM
Right now they're basically saying that if you disagree in any way you will be silenced.
 
As near as I can tell only two people (three if you include Joel) were actually involved in preventing or rolling back edits to the post, and I'm the only one who was a moderator
The other being an SE employee
 
user4639281
@jpmc26 I don't think you were out of line, I think the statement is wrong though
 
user4639281
@meagar There were more actions taken on that post than just edits
 
@meagar There's the reopens, too.
 
user4639281
Such as deleting reasonable comments asking for the wording to be changed, invalidation of close votes through reopen voting, etc.
 
5:43 AM
And presumed comment deletions although I can't make any guesses who is responsible for what.
 
There really were very few comment deletions.
 
@meagar But several other moderators agreed and supported those positions. At last 3, I think. They refused to take action, which in this case is supporting the inflammatory text.
 
Prior to Shog moving the entire thing over here
 
For the reopens I feel like if you've got a diamond, you wait until you're the fifth man in.
 
@meagar Only because we were responsible and took it out of comments for the most part.
 
5:44 AM
@JasonC Look at the reopen votes, and you'll find that almost all of us did
 
user4639281
Frankly there should have been no moderator or employee action take in contra to normal user action on that post.
 
@TinyGiant I think that's somewhat ridiculous
 
@meagar I did look at them. And I did find that almost all of you did. And I appreciate that. (Actually I made a comment to that effect earlier but Shog killed it).
 
The entire situation was very abnoraml
 
It's only a couple diamonds that did the early reopens. For the most part it was great.
Anyways I'm starting to ramble. And I still have work to do. Until later. Peace.
 
5:46 AM
@TinyGiant What do you think is the right reason, then?
 
user4639281
@meagar the only people that seem to disagree with the wording being changed are moderators or employees. Other users have attempted to rationalize the moderators and employees actions in reverting the edits, but no one seems opposed to having more neutral wording with respect to the opposing side of the discussion.
 
user4639281
@jpmc26 sorry, the right reason for what? Moderator involvement?
 
For moderators refusing to get involved.
 
user4639281
I have yet to see a reason for moderators to get involved
 
Where I come from, not doing something solely because someone else is more powerful than you is considered deeply unethical.
um, because we asked them to uphold policy?
 
user4639281
5:48 AM
I have yet to see a policy upheld by a moderator on that question, in fact I have seen countless broken.
 
And yet, we've seen plenty of moderator involvement elsewhere.
 
"countless" might be slightly hyperbolic :p
 
asking them to uphold a policy is, imo, no different than a flag.
 
user4639281
Pretty well every moderator or employee action including the original positing of the question have been technically in violation of site policy.
 
user4639281
Some breeches are easier to swallow than others.
 
5:50 AM
and when asked why they didn't handle it, their only response was, "because it's Joel's."
 
user4639281
@jpmc I think we're both saying the same thing.
 
Maybe. I'm confused. I asked if saying they're afraid of Joel is out of line; you said that's wrong.
 
user4639281
Not that saying it is out of line, but that they probably aren't afraid of joel
 
user4639281
They're doing what they're doing out of some misguided sense of duty.
 
ah, okay.
I dunno. I made an issue of this because I was afraid: afraid that SO is very soon going to become a place where conservative opinions are even more unwelcome than they already are.
It's blatantly obvious that SO as a company is pretty far left; I'd never consider applying there.
 
5:54 AM
@jpmc26 Joel's post not withstanding, do you genuinely feel like you're unwelcome because of your political opinions?
I mean, it should have no impact on your day to day use of the site. I can't remember my political leanings ever coming up.
 
@TinyGiant When the CEO of the company breaks his own site rules, there isn't much you can do now is it? Joel obviously found this merited the nearly unprecedented move.
 
I felt like I was unwelcome during the gay rights celebration thing. I let it go because it didn't seem to be actively attacking my beliefs then, despite not really feeling comfortable with it. I didn't wanna be a jerk just because I don't agree.
 
@jpmc26 If that is far left to you then you're in the "You'd be going to jail for having that opinion" territory in most of europe cause you're so far right of the european spectrum.
 
user4639281
@Magisch I was fine with the posting of the question even though it was in violation of site policies. I even agree with the political statement made. The problem I have has little to do with the actions of Joel, but rather the actions of the moderators and employees that have continued to be in direct conflict with site policies when trying to address content that I find highly offensive for various reasons.
 
@Magisch That is something I do not want to see America become. I want free speech to have real meaning, not just in name only.
 
5:58 AM
@jpmc26 In that case you should be the one decrying trump from every roof top, just saying.
 
Anyway, this was something different: this was saying that there is no possible, rational explanation for believing this policy is a good idea.
 
He's openly in favor of jailing people for opinions and speech
 
user4639281
Dammit all I wanted to do was discuss the damn executive order and how it affects Stack Overflow and the Stack Exchange network.
 
mhm
Sometimes a company CEO makes political statements
We have to live with that
 
Why?
 
5:59 AM
@Magisch We've been all over this territory. As I said, I want free speech to have real meaning.
 
because he's the CEO
 
and that goes for people I don't agree with, too.
 
@jpmc26 In that case, why aren't you an anti-trump activist right now?
 

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