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2:02 AM
@TinyGiant I wanted to give Joel a chance to answer the question of whether not he had contributed his own money in support of the issue, since the use of meta for this purpose goes above and beyond crowdsourcing user expertise to generate useful content. It uses that audience as a target for political mobilization.
 
Joel, many of us in chat feel that calling the opposing view "immoral," "fundamentally un-American," "morally repugnant," and "frankly stupid," is actively harming the community's ability to discuss this issue rationally. Moderators have instructed us to obtain permission before trying to make edits. Would it be okay if someone edited out this provocative language? It may be necessary to rework some of the text around it a little bit to make it flow, of course. But we will preserve the intent of your message. If you'd rather do this yourself, that's fine, of course. — jpmc26 7 mins ago
 
user4639281
@Sklivvz oh and in case you didn't get the memo, Shog qualifies editing as a form of communication.
 
^ good comment
 
@TinyGiant Whether or not that's "acceptable" or not is not my question; the fact remains that if he has put the money he derives from user labor as head of company toward that issue, it makes the political appeal more sincere and implies that he is acting in the good faith he claims in his post.
I cited to @enderland the case of Brendan Eich as example of that bad faith being a major issue.
 
user4639281
@bright-star Whether or not it is acceptable is irrelevant. It has been stated that any new comments on the question will be deleted without being read.
 
2:03 AM
That's why I said it wasn't my question.
 
user4639281
I don't see how that changes anything if it isn't going to be read before being deleted.
 
Just my personal, non-mod opinion: Find the answers that best represent your viewpoint and vote them up, and downvote the ones you disagree with. And then don't let this minor controversy take up your whole day/evening.
 
That's why I'm asking moderators in the room to allow me to post the comment so that Joel can address it.
 
@AaronHall It's too late for me. ;-;
 
@AaronHall Pft. Too late.
 
2:04 AM
@TinyGiant Are you a moderator I can appeal to?
 
and I consider it far from minor when someone in Joel's position pulls this.
3
I like SO. I don't want to be chased away by this kind of content.
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user4639281
@AaronHall What about the people that are currently afraid of voicing their opinion because the post contains verbiage which may make them feel like their opinion is not welcome?
 
user2654834
@jpmc26 I've already been stymied by the fact I can't seem to delete my account.
 
user4639281
@bright-star I don't see anywhere where you were addressing any moderators.
 
@TinyGiant I figured some moderators were in here, since I came after my comment got moderated away. Are you a moderator?
 
user4639281
2:06 AM
@bright-star No, my name would be blue
 
@AaronHall To be clear, no answer has dared to oppose Joel's view directly. Who are people holding that view supposed to upvote?
 
Ahh, thank you
 
@bright-star Your comment was removed by a mod not currently in this room
 
@KimberleyBarrass I think you have to send in a request for that. I forget how. But... give it a little time. Maybe you won't have to.
 
@jpmc26 Yeah, I don't like the fact that we have to explicitly ask the OP to edit the question rather than just editing it such that it adheres to Be Nice. :\
 
2:07 AM
@meagar not to mention it was a childish comment to make in the first place
 
And that we can't agree on what "Be Nice" means.
 
@meagar That's what I figured. Is this something I can make happen in a comment? I'm not certain it forms a whole answer, but I would like to give Joel a chance to address the issue.
 
Also, I've run out of stars.
 
@jpmc26 Then write an answer. Be diplomatic, but represent your point of view, and give people another choice.
 
@AaronHall I don't think anybody in this room disagrees, from what I've read.
 
user4639281
2:08 AM
I have run out of stars as well.
 
Please don't re-add it. If I understand correctly, you're asking if Joel has made any monetary contributions relevant to the political message in the political stance in his post?
 
@AaronHall I wrote my answer. I don't feel the topic is appropriate for Meta.SO in the first place, so I don't think expressing an opinion on the issue is appropriate. Additionally, I'm not even sure I support it anyway.
 
user4639281
@AaronHall I want to read everyone's opinions though, not just those brave enough to speak up when everyone is condemning them to the depths of hell.
 
@meagar Yes, specifically, if he's willing to disclose their (non-)existence in light of the fact that he did make the post on this site.
I'd like to put it to him directly and publicly, so that he can effectively address it in the same space.
 
user4639281
It is a simple verbiage change that preserves the intent of the post and would open up the discussion to everyone with an opposing view as well as those who share the same view.
 
2:11 AM
@bright-star Then I would suggest waiting until Shog gives the go-ahead to post comments again, though I don't expect you'll get an answer and I don't see how the answer would be relevant
 
@TinyGiant If this weren't Joel, that edit would've occurred hours ago. (Well, actually, the post would be deleted, but you know what I mean.)
 
user4639281
@jpmc26 It's the staff that are obtusely standing in the way, I have yet to see Joel rollback an edit... or contribute to the discussion in any way since the original post and some reopen votes for that matter
 
Yup. But they're only doing this because it's Joel.
 
So... should I open that meta post, or no?
 
@meagar (My reasoning's floating around up at chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/35363714#35363714 .) There's no way to find out when Shog has halted the comment ban without visiting the site repeatedly though, is there?
 
2:14 AM
@jpmc26 Low(ish) blow
 
@TinyGiant I think you think that Joel and everyone else cares way more about everyone's reaction to this than they probably do
 
I've explained why I don't think Joel's wording should be changed.
 
user4639281
@enderland No, I wished that Joel cared more about it that he seemingly does. If he did, we wouldn't have this problem.
 
user2654834
It's such a horrible question to ask. Look at the answers. they have evoked beautiful sentiment and impassioned pleas. Anyone disagreeing looks like they are a member of the third reich. However, I remain convinced that it is partisan, divisive, against all guidance and allowed only because it is Jeol
 
@jpmc26 Again, that's not my reason for rejecting edits to the post
 
user4639281
2:15 AM
@meagar Well it certainly isn't following site policy or common consensus
 
I agree
 
@meagar I apologize. I didn't handle this well.
I've deleted my above comments, but I'm still frustrated.
 
user4639281
@meagar Then why can't we make the minor change necessary to get this discussion back on track?
 
Moderators are actively supporting content that is clearly in violation of all site policy/guidelines. The only possible reasons are related to Joel's position of power or you having a conflict of interest due to your own political views. I don't think either one is appropriate behavior for a moderator.
 
@TinyGiant the tl;dr is because Joel is the CEO. The CEO of the company that owns and operates this platform has made a statement, and his wording was (presumably) carefully chosen and intentional.
 
user4639281
2:18 AM
@meagar I'm not against having the question here. I'm not against the political position. I'm against the fact that he is carving up the world into us vs. them, building walls, and demonizing anyone who opposes his position due to some simple verbiage that could easily be changed without deviating from the intent of the post, unless the intent of the post is to carve up the world into us vs. them, build walls, and demonize anyone who opposes his position
 
@meagar Do you agree that calling someone stupid is a clear violation of site policy?
 
user4639281
@meagar So you're saying that it is intentional that he is violating the be-nice policy and alienating anyone who may not share his opinion?
 
@TinyGiant Ok so, wait for Joel to respond.
 
user2654834
Right. I'm off to bother, oh, I don't know: Wikipedia and the MSDN blogs, or something!!! I will look back in when I awaken. Good night all!
 
user4639281
@meagar We've been waiting since yesterday.
 
2:19 AM
Good night.
 
@jpmc26 Yeah, and I would edit it out of pretty much any other user's post
 
@meagar So you don't feel like you can dissent from Joel's opinion?
 
Joel has every right to make a meta post (as other Stack Overflow employees do regarding company business) on a public policy that directly affects his employees. His legal duty is to his shareholders, if he thinks it's in their best interests (and I can see making that justification). I voted for Trump, and I want to give him time to work things through. I also like and respect Joel, CEO of Stack Overflow, and I want to give him space to work too. Write answers if you disagree with him.
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user4639281
@AaronHall I'm not against having the question here. I'm not against the political position. I'm against the fact that he is carving up the world into us vs. them, building walls, and demonizing anyone who opposes his position due to some simple verbiage that could easily be changed without deviating from the intent of the post, unless the intent of the post is to carve up the world into us vs. them, build walls, and demonize anyone who opposes his position
 
@jpmc26 No, but I believe Joel should be the one to make modifications to his statement
 
2:20 AM
@meagar Why? What would be the consequence of you doing it?
 
I'd be putting words in the mouth of the CEO of a major tech company?
 
Rob
If we are treating this as a statement from SE and/or press release, it should have been posted as a blog post, not something that is able to be edited, and in all other cases, encouraged to be edited. If Joel disagrees with an edit, why can't he roll back the edit himself?
 
user4639281
@AaronHall This whole discussion is not about disagreeing with the meta post, it is about disagreeing with silencing anyone who may oppose the political position presented in the meta post.
 
@meagar Joel being "above the law" isn't good for the community. You know that.
 
I've never argued that it is
 
2:21 AM
Do you feel like you could tell Joel that he shouldn't be above the law?
 
Probably? To be clear, I've never met Joel, or spoken to him online, or otherwise contacted him or been contacted by him.
 
Did someone tell you that you shouldn't modify Joel's or staff's posts? The mods seem amazingly united on this front.
 
No, though "united" might be a strong word. The mods that are actually here on a Sunday night do seem to think that Joel should be the one to make changes to his post.
 
I've seen at least 3 mods express the same opinion, and Shog didn't do anything about it, either.
But why shouldn't you modify his posts in the case of a clear policy violation?
If anything is within your duties as a mod, that is.
 
5 mins ago, by meagar
I'd be putting words in the mouth of the CEO of a major tech company?
 
2:26 AM
1 hour ago, by Sklivvz
Please don't make edits that change the intended meaning of the post. It's up to the OP to change what they mean to say if they want to. — Sklivvz ♦ 46 secs ago
 
No one is advocating for changing what the post says. We're only talking about removing some specific words that violate the Be Nice policy.
 
Joel clearly made a post about the direction Stack Overflow should take - "it goes so much against the spirit of Stack Overflow that as a community we must speak out." -- it seems perfectly normal to be hesitant to edit/change that post from the CEO himself
 
that's not considered "changing the meaning" or "putting words in the mouth" of any other user.
 
^ It's often a bad idea to do so on any post. The OP gets offended. It's an extremely bad idea on a 1k upvotes post with people arguing about it for hours.
It's all that there is to it
The whole purpose of moderation is to ...moderate, or calm down, the discussion.
 
I should think people arguing over it for hours and the high visibility would be a reason to edit out derogatory content, not a reason to leave it alone...
 
2:28 AM
a very small number of people*
2
 
@jpmc26 I would counter that it's a reason to give the argument a rest and wait for some kind of official response from Joel, Shog or SO.
 
I am not discussing this with you once more. People can look up for the whole argument (or look to any other mod for guidance).
 
and, given the number of views that post has had, probably a small percentage actually care enough to come to this room and post
 
@enderland Actually, you don't know how many people with differing opinions just left and never participated because they felt unwelcome.
I almost did.
and not even because I agree with the order. but because I wasn't ready to be opposed to it.
 
user4639281
@Sklivvz tell that to shog
 
2:31 AM
Given the 10x upvote vs downvote ratio, I suspect it's quite a small percentage nonetheless
 
fair enough. still, the number being small doesn't justify not caring.
 
user4639281
@Sklivvz No one is arguing about whether the wording should be in there or not except for the moderators. Everyone else thinks it should be removed.
 
@jpmc26 I dislike that I cannot star this.
 
@enderland After all, isn't it a small percentage of people affected by this order?
 
user4639281
@meagar @sklivvz So it is literally moderators working in contrary to site policy in order to continue the silencing of opposing views. As you've all but said that no one has told you to do this, I ask you to please stop operating in violation of the site's commonly accepted policies of editing and communication.
 
2:34 AM
I'm just so disappointed that we have to ask Joel if we can remove his derogatory content, when any other users, even mods and probably other staff, would have it removed in pretty short order.
 
you're trying to argue semantics to me, and I don't care. it's Joel's company as he is CEO. It's his prerogative to change site rules, make exceptions, or whatever he wants, about any topic he wants. I think the current post is inflammatory and divisive and works contrary to the goals of the post, but it's his post and his political statement to make
 
@enderland No, I'm arguing ethics with you and you know it. "Semantics" is a total misrepresentation.
 
ethics? how is this an ethical discussion?
 
The Be Nice policy addresses an ethical issue.
 
why?
 
2:36 AM
@meagar For the record, I posted my response as an answer here since this is a "discussion" meta question anyway. Thanks for taking the time to explain to me what was going on with the moderation of this question.
 
user4639281
@enderland Certainly it is his prerogative, definitely not the moderator's to take upon themselves to violate site policies.
 
@everyone Have a good night, everyone.
 
@enderland You're seriously trying to argue that a policy that tells you how to behave toward other people is not an ethical policy?
 
I don't think anyone thinks that the post by Joel doesn't violate the "be nice" policy
 
What else is a policy that governs behavior?
 
2:38 AM
ok, I've had something to eat and regained some measure of patience. Now... @jpmc26, where do you feel the current revision violates "be nice"?
 
the discussion isn't "does it violate the be nice policy?" but "should Joel be allowed to do so"
 
@Shog9 For a quick summary, you can see the comment I posted on the question following discussion with mods here.
 
Joel, many of us in chat feel that calling the opposing view "immoral," "fundamentally un-American," "morally repugnant," and "frankly stupid," is actively harming the community's ability to discuss this issue rationally. Moderators have instructed us to obtain permission before trying to make edits. Would it be okay if someone edited out this provocative language? It may be necessary to rework some of the text around it a little bit to make it flow, of course. But we will preserve the intent of your message. If you'd rather do this yourself, that's fine, of course. — jpmc26 43 mins ago
 
@Shog9 for a longer discussion, you can see my answers: meta.stackoverflow.com/a/342474/1394393 and meta.stackoverflow.com/a/342505/1394393.
 
@enderland ok, so... You feel this passage is crossing - or at least, walking - the line between "criticize an idea" and "criticize a person"?
That is, as a supporter of the idea, you feel reluctant to defend it because by doing so you would be in some sense applying those adjectives to yourself?
 
2:41 AM
> I think the current post is inflammatory and divisive and works contrary to the goals of the post
 
You cannot call an idea "immoral" without implying that the person who believes it is also so.
 
(I was just pasting a link to the comment that @jpmc26 mentioned)
 
Just to be clear, we're not talking about a belief system here, we're talking about a sudden change in US Gov't policy.
 
yes, I understand.
 
A policy that very, very few people had any knowledge of until yesterday
 
Anonymous
2:42 AM
The actual point is: rational vs emotional people; who wins? We'll find out when the advertisement ends
 
@Shog9 I disagree with this, it was pretty clear from Trump's campaign
 
@FrancescoMenzani Not helpful.
 
Anonymous
^ Rational man
 
@enderland I... Would be very uncomfortable calling anything from that campaign "clear". But let's not get into that now; there was certainly nothing close to a detailed proposal for what was implemented being discussed during the campaign.
 
Rob
I hardly think it matters whether it was prior knowledge or not. People can still agree or disagree with it now.
 
2:45 AM
@Rob it matters if you're gonna try & argue that a critique of the policy is somehow a critique of you, as a person
 
perhaps a better word would be "unsurprising" then
 
While the statements certainly didn't point at a specific person, I hardly think that saying that an idea backed by millions is "stupid" right off the bat encourages conversation that would let either side establish their idea.
 
Rob
@Shog9 To say an action something is immoral, unconstitutional, stupid is indeed an offense to people who believe it was the correct action.
 
I woke up this morning to an interview with some official backpeddling on the whole legal resident ban, which was being enforced yesterday. IOW, the folks implementing this aren't at all clear on what it actually means, thus I defy anyone to claim it constitutes a fundamental part of their belief system and to criticize it is therefore an attack on them as a person.
3
 
for what it's worth, I think that part of the reason the language in Joel's post being provokative is problematic is that anti-Trump folks for a long time now have been making much of the political argument about the Trump voters rather than the issues they support
 
Rob
2:47 AM
@Shog9 Though clearly some people here are quite upset by the terms of language used here. I actually support what Joel has written (though thoroughly disagree with where he posted it), and I can still see it being needlessly dismissive of other views.
 
@Rob All of this. ^^
 
Okay. I see what you're saying. That said, I'm going to backpedal. This post isn't just about a particular policy.
 
It... Kinda is.
 
This post fundamentally dismisses the notion that there is any valid concern that could motivate the policy.
 
I mean, I rather suspect there are a great many things that Joel feels strongly about, dislikes about the current or past presidential policies, etc... And yet, he's not posting mile-long rants about all that is wrong with Gov't; he's criticizing a very specific action and policy.
 
2:49 AM
And it does so with the words I've asked to be removed: "immoral," "fundamentally un-American," "morally repugnant," and "frankly stupid."
Would any other user be allowed to use that kind of language about a controversial policy? No, and rightly so because it dismisses anyone holding a view in favor of it.
 
@jpmc26 so... Let's dig into this a bit.
Believe it or not, folks have actually proposed blocking users from specific countries before. On Stack Overflow.
The idea being, there are certain countries that seem to produce a large number of poor-quality questions, and thus it would be expedient to simply block all questions coming from IPs associated with such countries rather than continuing to expend effort on closing and deleting them.
So... Can we consider the discussion of such a policy to be sufficiently controversial for our purposes here?
 
Okay. That would be a great fact for Joel to include in his post. And he can say, "This is counter-productive because..." And he can back it up with the facts he provided in his post. I think that would make his post a lot stronger.
 
I think we may be still arguing about two different topics. The concern brought up is about the wording discouraging users from engaging in discussion, not about the actual issue itself.
 
But would you be okay with you for users debating such a policy to go on about how "stupid" and "immoral" the proposal is? Wouldn't that make it harder to have an honest discussion, particularly if most people were against it?
 
@jpmc26 if that's their argument against it, yes.
Here's another example: hellbanning
 
2:57 AM
You would decline a flag where one post called another "stupid"?
 
user4639281
@Shog9 None of this changes the fact that some of the wording in the post violates the be-nice policy and serves to silence those who would disagree by implying that by disagreeing they would qualify as being those not-nice things. I agree with the political stance in the question, and agree that the question should exist. I disagree that there should be anyone should be made fearful of contributing to the discussion due to the wording.
 
> Allowing users from <country> to post on Stack Overflow is frankly stupid. It's fundamentally un-Stack Exchange-like.
 
@jpmc26 where an idea, a proposed change to the system is described as "stupid"? I probably would.
 
I highly doubt that wouldn't get a valided bunch of flags thrown at it
 
I mean...
95
Q: Make comment flags less stupid

Shog9I'm sick of comment flags, and I'm pretty sure everyone else is too. They've been a problem for five years, and they're just getting worse. Don't get me wrong: rude/vulgar/stupid comments are a plague. We don't want this to be YouTube, and know good and well it could easily go that route. But th...

 
2:58 AM
@Shog9 Can I go make a post applying all these words to abortion, then? I think that's a major human rights violation.
 
@jpmc26 Then I would rather hope you consider it immoral.
(that is to say, if you see something as a violation of human rights and yet see its practice as moral, that's... that's a tough nut to crack right there.)
 
It's not a matter of whether it's moral or not.
 
I'm of the opinion that political activism has no place on Stack Overflow, justified or not.
 
Well, ultimately it is
 
@Shog9 No, it's not. Morality is wholly subjective.
 
3:00 AM
oh?
 
A lot of people disagree with me about its morality, and the site policies require me to be respectful when discussing political views with them.
 
so, be respectful
 
How can I be respectful when I'm just shouting that they're "immoral" and "stupid"?
 
I mean, we have discussions of controversial topics already.
 
Why would they listen to me? Why would they even talk to me? I'd be "chasing them from their food," as you described it.
 
user4639281
3:01 AM
@Shog There was a post you edited the other day about how moderators were psycopaths, anyway I could get a link to that?
 
@TinyGiant you could probably peruse my edit history
 
user4639281
It's deleted
 
oh.
 
@TinyGiant we are. anyone willing to put up with moderation clearly has some screws loose in our heads ;)
 
I got to that one too late, I'm afraid
 
user4639281
3:02 AM
@enderland :P
 
It was already sitting at something like -16 when I found it
 
user4639281
@Shog9 I know, just need a link for reference
 
Awful hard to bring something back after that
@TinyGiant try recently-deleted under 10k tools
 
user4639281
It was deleted a few days ago, I'll check though
 
Here's the post I was looking for:
49
A: Is there going to be a process around hellbanning?

wafflesHellbanning, slowbanning, errorbanning, and randombanning are all things we have never experimented with and do not intend to. It is very hard to make the argument that using extreme evil to battle evil makes the internet better. Our current measures of banning and stopping the huge flow of e...

 
user4639281
3:04 AM
@Shog9 Nah it wasn't deleted recently enough
 
waffles - an employee at the time - describes "hellbanning" as extreme evil
now... That's a bit hyperbolic
but it's certainly an emotional argument.
there's no technical reason not to hellban people
arguably, it would make our lives a lot easier
 
It's hyperbolic enough on a on-controversial enough issue that it's pretty clearly hyperbole.
 
just think, no more complaints from q-banned users who skip right past the increasingly-detailed guidance they're given and post on meta.
 
Joel's post does not seem to be hyperbole.
 
there is a fair bit less... ah, baggage associated with hellbanning than there is politics
 
3:07 AM
@enderland which brings me back to the question of what connection does this have to Stack Overflow?
 
politics?
 
Because... I have a theory...
...if you don't see the connection, you probably find the post rather insulting or at least incongruous
...and if you do, you're having trouble understanding why anyone would be upset about it
anyone here not fall into one of those two categories?
 
I'm not sure the connection matters.
 
Wait gotta catch up
 
I'm actually confused by what you are saying more than anything else right now, what connection? the post you linked?
 
3:09 AM
this discussion we're having about Joel's post
or, Joel's post itself, if you prefer
either/or: what connection does a sudden US block on immigration for some folks have to do with Stack Overflow?
 
you mean besides Kasra?
 
sure
 
you could perhaps say that SO will never ban people based on their country or country of origin for their IP as the connection?
 
@enderland we could say that
 
if that is the point, then the post Joel wrote was definitely unnecessarily provokative
 
3:11 AM
keeping in mind, Stack Overflow is a US company operating out of the US and bound to obey US law
so, I mean, we could say it, just like we could say we're gonna make a billion dollars and also breed actual unicorns, but...
 
Someone mentioned that they thought SO helps people get Visas earlier.
is that what you have in mind?
 
How many folks do you think are using SO from Iraq, Syria, Iran, Libya, etc.
How many folks originally from those countries do you think are contributing to the site?
How often has that ever even mattered before today?
 
I thought it always mattered because diversity.
 
everything you are saying about the message could be true with less inflammatory language (and actually be even more relevant since the message would be more clear)
 
Diversity means not locking people out.
For years, our mantra has been, "it's about the content, not the person"
 
3:14 AM
if the point of that post was to say "SO will always welcome people around the world" it should have just said that
 
What about diversity of political opinion, then? How does this post affect that?
 
"Regardless of political events, Stack Overflow will never.... etc"
 
We've said all that before.
Heck, the company is literally staffed by people scattered around the globe.
You can sign up for a job anywhere you can get Internet access.
 
That actually makes this post more confusing. Diversity, including cultural has always been a value of SO. So the only thing new here is the rage.
 
So... Lemme try & be a bit less subtle here.
 
3:17 AM
I guess I'm still missing the point about why making an unnecessarily political statement rather than clarifying the important parts of the statement is somehow better than just saying what Joel means?
 
Until yesterday, it was a given that if you were a legal resident of the US you could, y'know, come to the US.
Suddenly, that's not true.
Instead of there being a few exceptions to the rule, the rule is a lot more complicated.
So y'all are thinking, "hey, just promise to never block people from using the site, non-issue"
But... What if come next Saturday that's suddenly illegal?
This is a really, really bad precedent, you get my drift?
There's no long debate in Congress like SOPA
Stroke of a pen, suddenly shit is broken.
 
None of this makes it any more clear why this required such a politically divisive statement instead of simply clarifying what appears to be a hidden message in the post
 
okay, fine. you'll note that I didn't even call out the word "unconstitutional" in Joel's post.
 
@enderland hence my theory of a few minutes back
I don't see this as particularly hidden
 
I don't see how that makes "immoral," "fundamentally un-American," "morally repugnant," and "frankly stupid" any better.
also, if that's the issue, where was Joel bad when Obama's administration was trying to force Catholic facilities provide abortion coverage?
The left and right can all pull out stuff like this.
And yes, it's getting worse over the years, but that isn't really a left or right thing.
 
3:22 AM
@jpmc26 ok, lemme stop you. What does this have to do with "left vs right"?
I'm not gonna get into my own politics here, but... They're not something that'd normally be described as "left".
This is the kind of crap I grew up hearing about in Soviet-controlled countries.
 
Because the left (generally) opposes this policy and anything similar based on the kinds of concerns Joel and Karsa have raised, while the right (generally) is more inclined to be mindful of the impact on our ability to fight terrorism.
We can have a reasonable debate about the policy; I don't strongly support or oppose it at this point. That's fine.
 
Please. This has nothing to do with terrorism.
 
Okay, that.
That right there.
That's what I'm talking about.
 
@jpmc26 Same for you. It goes both ways.
 
You are entitled to the opinion that it has nothing to do with terrorism. But Trump says it does. And a lot of his supporters think it does, too.
 
3:26 AM
What purpose does the ban have other than preventing terrorism? Is it just for fun?
 
@jpmc26 You wanna make the argument that this is about terrorism, go write a meta answer. Please.
 
That doesn't make them right, but dismissing that opinion outright is just as wrong as dismissing the kind of concerns Joel raised outright.
 
@Shog9 Wouldn't be appropriate for the site.
 
user4639281
@jpmc26 Personally I imagine this is just the beginning of the bans, ultimately resulting in little to no immigration into the US at all.
 
@Shog9 I don't wanna make an argument either way. I just want this to be a climate where we can respect each others' opinions.
 
3:28 AM
@jpmc26 you just did make the argument, right here.
It's bogus, but you still made it.
 
No, I made the argument that some people believe it.
And that in accordance with site policy, those people should be respected.
 
@VoteToClose Didn't realize what you were going for @jpmc26, apologies.
 
My above question was a legitimate question by the way. I've never heard that the ban didn't have anything to do with terrorism.
 
@4castle Many on the not-Trump side believe that it is a ploy with racist/anti-muslim intentions. Whilst most on the Trump side believe that it is about terrorism.
 
@Shog9 You wanna say it doesn't have anything to do with terrorism? Go for it. Joel can go for it, too. You are both entitled to your opinions and entitled to express them. But shouldn't we extend the same courtesy to those who disagree with you? And shouldn't we debate against the belief in a respectful tone, instead of a dismissive one?
 
3:32 AM
@jpmc26 here:
3
Q: Has any immigrant from any of the countries named in Trump's executive order been guilty of terrorism on US soil?

Mohammad Sakib ArifinPresident Trump has recently issued an executive order titled Protecting the Nation from Foreign Terrorist Entry into the United States, suspends the U.S. Refugee Admissions Program (USRAP) for 120 days as well as entry of people from Iraq, Iran, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, and Yemen for 90 days and f...

 
@Shog9 I don't think you're understanding me. The correctness of the belief is irrelevant.
I dunno what Trump's motives are, and for this discussion, I don't really care.
 
@jpmc26 nor do I.
We run a Q&A site for programmers world-wide
We would very much like to continue running a Q&A site for programmers world-wide
 
He does say the list comes from a list of "high risk" countries created by the Obama administration, so if you believe that, the idea that it's terrorism motivated isn't total idiocy.
I say that not to defend the position.
 
@jpmc26 why would I be any more trusting of the Obama administration's claims here?
 
But to point out that someone believing it isn't totally beyond the pale, as Joel's post implies it is.
You may believe that people supporting the policy are uneducated, and maybe you and Joel are right. It could be. You could also be wrong, though.
 
3:35 AM
@jpmc26 you're interpreting it that way, but I don't believe that's what it says.
@jpmc26 "uneducated"?
wtf.
 
uneducated about the issue.
pardon my lack of clarity.
 
The issue here is that we have a very sudden, very dramatic change to US policy.
 
but my point is simply this: reasonable people can disagree with Joel's view on the issue. reasonable people can agree with it.
 
Everyone, up to and including the folks working for the administration that is implementing it, are uneducated about it, because it's less than a weekend old and appears to have changed numerous times just prior to and after being announced.
 
why is Joel allowed to vilify those people in a way that no other user could?
 
3:38 AM
@jpmc26 who on earth are you even talking about?
The post doesn't say, "Trump is teh stupid"
Post doesn't even say "Trump supporters are stupid"
Post says "this policy is stupid"
You wanna argue it's not, go right ahead
 
Implied insults are just as discussion-killing as the direct ones.
 
So who is the implied insultee here?
 
Anyone disagreeing with Joel.
 
The folks who didn't know about this until yesterday but kinda think it's OK?
 
Anyone who thinks it's legitimate to control immigration in the name of preventing terrorism.
 
3:40 AM
The folks who implemented it and are arguing with each other in public about what it actually means?
 
@Shog9 The folks who didn't know about this until yesterday but kinda think it's bad are the ones posting it. ;)
 
(cannot stress that enough BTW - you want a definition for "stupid policy", it's "no one knows how to even interpret it")
 
@Shog9 By that definition, Joel's post is also a stupid post
 
So where was Joel when that was the case for ObamaCare? This post isn't about an issue. This post is about anti-Trump sentiments.
 
Because I don't know what it's suggesting or why
 
3:42 AM
@jpmc26 ah, yes, I forgot the bit in that plan where suddenly legal residents were to be handcuffed.
 
You can't make these kinds of claims about one policy and not another that's more in line with your political views without it becoming about that.
 
I had to come to chat to have the purpose of the post clarified
 
The purpose of the post is that we have a dangerous policy being put into place and if we don't speak up now then it's going to be too late. That's... Abundantly clear to me from the post.
 
Okay, so the clarity or lack thereof has nothing to do with it.
 
By "speak up", is it just asking people to write their testimonies in the answers?
 
3:44 AM
You know what? I wouldn't object to the word "dangerous", but I don't see it anywhere in the post.
I just see "immoral" and "stupid." I didn't even get "dangerous" from it.
 
@4castle Unclear.
 
It's a meta discussion. Write whatever you want in an answer. Testify, object, post a picture of a waffle with some slogan written on it.
 
It's very curious that whenever these controversial posts get made, there only seem to be 2 types of responses: 1) people who agree and think the post should stay 2) people who agree but think it's off topic
 
Even "counterproductive" is okay.
but the bottom line here: this post is not nice to its dissenters.
 
who is dissenting?
 
3:46 AM
maybe some of the 143 downvoters?
 
maybe? Who knows.
 
I think on any politically charged issue, you can reasonably assume some people who disagree with it will read it.
 
@jpmc26 you can pretty much assume that about literally anything you post to meta
 
yes but they never seem to be comfortable to actually say so out loud
 
I mean... When I post the results of moderator elections, those get downvoted and closed.
 
3:47 AM
Does this post invite them to reconsider their viewpoint, or does it just tell them they're immoral and stupid?
 
So, forgive me if I take meta voting with just a tiny grain of salt here.
If you want to have an impact on meta, you learn to write.
 
I did. I'm writing now. I wrote on an answer on Joel's post and on the companion post about closing it.
 
I mean, an actual rebuttal, not "this doesn't belong here"
 
I'm engaging in dialogue to encourage you to protect people who happen to have a minority opinion in this community from being dismissed and derided by a C-level exec.
 
when joel did the gay marriage post, no one actually said "I don't agree with gay marriage". likewise no-one is actually saying "I agree with Trump's policy".
 
3:50 AM
@samgak yes they did
good lord, LOTS of them did
folks wrote blog posts about it
and answers, and huuuuge numbers of comments
 
user4639281
@samgak Many people were vehemently against allowing gay marriage
 
there were angry bitter arguments, lots of stuff got deleted 'cause folks couldn't resist personal attacks; it was a headache
 
ok, I must have missed it. all the posts on MSO I read where just about it being off topic
 
This is actually far less controversial
@jpmc26 look... For months and months now, I and others on my team have been going around trying to calm folks who were all worked up about how awful Hillary was gonna be, or how awful Trump was gonna be, or just plain hated Jill, or whatever.
I've written about it at length.
That doesn't - and hasn't - precluded actually discussing what's going on...
...it does mean not pushing your personal insults into someone else's face.
 
Since all comments are being purged no matter what... I suppose I should post here that I find it laughable that all edits are disallowed in this post.
 
3:53 AM
Calling a person's viewpoint "stupid" and "immoral" isn't going to calm anyone down.
 
@jpmc26 Still can't star, thank you mysterious star-er.
 
@jpmc26 again, we're not discussing viewpoints here.
This isn't, "hey, immigration is good, m'kay"
 
But discussing viewpoint on Meta is fine apparently.
 
This is "a specific policy is harmful and contrary to the foundation on which this very community stands"
 
Said it before but: Edits are allowed, so long as they do not conflict with the author's intent, same as always.
 
3:55 AM
Previous edits pretty clearly didn't conflict, yet still were rolled back
 
oh good grief...
one sec
 
@Shog9 Actually, it is, "hey, immigration is good, m'kay" sandwiched between, "a temporary ban on it is immoral and un-American" and "morally repugnant and frankly stupid"
 
Jeff Atwood on April 8, 2009
Editing is the backbone of Stack Overflow, and probably (along with the reputation system) one of the single most important distinctions between Stack Overflow and "just another forum".
Editing policy, last 8 or so years ^
 
@AlexanderO'Mara You missed all the mods rolling back edits and refusing to do edits themselves.
They wouldn't even leave a comment asking if edits were okay, despite advising us to do so.
 
3:57 AM
people need to be a bit realistic about the prospects of goading SO employees into confrontations with their boss
 
I left one, but apparently it's been deleted. @Shog9 Any idea if Joel even saw the request?
 
@jpmc26 no idea
 
I didn't miss anything, and would have rolled them back myself.
 
@jpmc26 They deleted it?
 
I did mention, a few hours back, that I'd be deleting further meta commentary
 
3:57 AM
@VoteToClose Yes.
 
@AlexanderO'Mara And this is why we should avoid discussing politics on meta. This is literally the purpose of blogs
 
@Shog9 I had hoped you'd give that one a chance just for Joel to read and consider, "Maybe my post is inflammatory and it would be better if I toned it down," but no.
 
@jpmc26 this system scales reasonably well when folks post long-form answers and short critiquing or clarifying comments. Not so much when folks have long drawn-out arguments directly under the question. Hence the existence of chat.
@jpmc26 He has the same access to deleted comments that I do. If he wants to read through... 206... of them, he can.
 
I imagine not deleted comments are given priority, no?
 

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