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9:00 PM
@ircmaxell why? I think we'd fail if PHP was fresh, but not if it's the one with the big market share...?
@JoeWatkins how do you mean?
 
The point is not imposing standards, that's Anthony's point.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum so we should follow standards others imposed?
 
They're building something new to address issues they have, you shouldn't be angry at them for doing that - it's better than forking PHP which'd just cause fragmantation.
 
the idea of wildcards wasn't invented by hack ... docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/java/generics/wildcards.html
it isn't any better than forking php, infact it's much worse, theres no part of hhvm we can use ... none ...
 
@JoeWatkins You don't want to hear my opinion on that :P
 
9:02 PM
@bwoebi I think the idea is to be compatible unless we have a reason not to be.
 
Also, Java didn't invent wildcards either.
 
yeah they probably didn't, it's my reference for it ...
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Heh, I remember wildcards from mIRC when I was 13 XD
 
@LeviMorrison for me there's the reason: I don't like the syntax
 
You should use Hack as a testbed for PHP when you're able, migrate features that are extremely successful there.
 
9:03 PM
@bwoebi I am aware. You don't like the position of the type-hint nor do you like using ? as a nullable indicator. You are free to not like it.
 
Having a new language that's very similar to PHP that experiments a lot is very positive for you.
 
Give me some technical reasons to do it another way.
 
I, for one, welcome our new Facebook Hacklang overlords.
 
Heck, use it, see what works and what doesn't. Don't rule a language as bad before trying it.
 
well I don't actually neeed anything it provides, and when you look it objectively it's not able to provide much more than PHP ...
 
9:04 PM
@LeviMorrison It may confuse C programmers less.
 
@bwoebi Okay. This way may confuse functional programmers less. E_SUBJECTIVE. Next reason, please.
 
@JoeWatkins it's another perspective. Criticizing is the easiest thing to do and the least constructive.
 
@LeviMorrison ? already means something in the language.
 
Except for when it's criticizing php, in which case it's stress relief :P
 
@LeviMorrison really, syntax is always subjective. Why do we not just use Golfscript syntax with PHP semantics? :x
 
9:05 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum assuming it's better because on paper it can be is foolhardy, I'm able to criticize because I've looked ;)
 
And so it may confuse PHP developers.
 
@JoeWatkins show me a project you built with hack?
 
if I want the kinds of things that hack is providing, specifically, I'll go somewhere more mature, because I'm able, and when we look at how well it executes php, it's not actually better than the current zend engine+opcache ... so, there's actually nothing in it for me in the real world, yet ...
 
Being small and new is a big advantage too.
It means they experiment with syntax and features a lot.
It's a dream come true for something like your RFC system - the sort of experimenting they do. You now have a user base that uses a very similar language with more new quirky features you can question.
 
well yes but I can understand bobs complaint, in what way is php driving it's own development if every feature that comes up that is already implemented in an external project has to follow suit and implement it the same as the external project ...
 
9:08 PM
What works, what doesn't, etc.
 
@bwoebi FYI, C++ also has trailing return types ;)
 
c++ has what?
 
@JoeWatkins Well, if features come up that were implemented in a syntactically derived language elsewhere, then perhaps PHP should've come up with it first.
 
Oh that. yeah. c++11
 
@NikiC never seen… must be new? … okay @BenjaminGruenbaum says it.
 
9:10 PM
...and not spent a great deal of time soapboxing and bikeshedding.
 
They use -> type instead of : type.
 
@bwoebi it is ;)
 
It's the -> decltype thing, it's cute and stuff.
 
I like the latter because : is shorter. Happens to also be what Hack uses.
 
@DanLugg doesn't change the fact that php is no longer really driving it's own development, at least to some extent it is driven by an external project out of all of our control ... it's a perfectly valid observation, you can should've and could've all you like, it doesn't change what is actually happening ...
 
9:11 PM
@JoeWatkins Implementing proven solutions to common problems instead of reinventing the wheel? Who'd want that.
There are more fundamental problems with PHP, I still think Hack is a positive thing for PHP.
 
@JoeWatkins I'm not saying we must take what hack did whole-sale. But when it makes sense and aligns with our goals, we should have a valid reason to not implement it in a compatible (or subset compatible) manner
 
@webarto I you wire me your contact details, I can forward them
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum if anything is approaching proven, it is that none of this stuff is required, 80% and none of this stuff exists now, so I'm not persuaded at all by the proven implementation, it's proven elsewhere, and what works elsewhere isn't always good for us, how could it be ... what is available elsewhere might be a good guide
 
What do you mean? Lots of things that are 'good elsewhere' made it into PHP.
It happens in all languages all the time.
 
@ircmaxell I think in this case it makes sense to be compatible ... but it doesn't change what is actually happening, I just don't see the point in rebelling against it yet, I'd rather see the silver lining, at least things will be on the table that weren't before perhaps ...
 
9:15 PM
You can't possibly be 100% satisfied with the PHP feature set right now...
 
@JoeWatkins and that's all I'm saying. Case-by-case, when it makes sense. If it doesn't make sense (in a non-opinion based manner, like it increases parser complexity significantly), then don't do it.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum It's not that I'm not satisfied by the PHP features right now (I'm not). I'm deeply not satisfied by the process in which features are added.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I mean that I actually don't want php to have every cool feature from every language I have ever used, it's not some kind of programming dumping ground, just because some other language has some implementation and it's the best thing that ever happened to that language doesn't mean it would be any good for us ... I am aware any language but especially php is made up of bits of other languages, but it doesn't mean that we should aim to just gather up everything
that works and have it work for us ...
 
@JoeWatkins I can't disagree with that.
@SecondRikudo use a better language :P
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum My next job is going to be mainly JS :)
 
9:20 PM
waits for it
 
What are you waiting for?
 
Also, glad you took that Job.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Yeah, I asked 3 objective and experienced people, all told me the same, so...
 
For someone like @bwoebi or @PeeHaa to ping you with "didn't you read? He said better" or some other haters gonna hate speech :P
 
I also asked you.
:D
 
9:21 PM
lol, thanks. For a minute there I thought you thought I was objective.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Well, if the entire thing was the same, but only the languages were reversed, would you change your opinion? :)
 
/me sleeps
 
@SecondRikudo maybe :P
 
@JoeWatkins I've sent an email to Sara hoping she'll give me some insight. I'll give this some thinking for a day or two and hopefully she'll respond by then. After that I'll ping you with an update. Thanks for your help so far.
 
9:45 PM
@Gordon dm php net :) Already contacted the office @ organizer, Igor gave me that mail.
@JoeWatkins goodnight, sweet prince
The certificate for chat.hipchat.com
 could not be validated.
The certificate claims to be from "*.hipchat.com" instead. This could mean that you are not connecting to the service you believe you are.
The certificate is not trusted because no certificate that can verify it is currently trusted.
 
-2
A: Using foreach with SplFixedArray

salathe Any workaround? Short answer: don't iterate-by-reference. If you wish to re-assign values, you can use the key just like with a normal array. Original: bad $spl = new SplFixedArray(10); foreach ($spl as &$value) { $value = "string"; } var_dump($spl); Assign by key: good $spl = ne...

What did I do wrong here?
 
@salathe nothing, people are being idiots
 
@salathe you likely hurt some reference fanboi's feeling
 
@salathe why isn't that possible… pfff … SPL! :x
 
@salathe Room 11 corrected.
 
9:58 PM
@bwoebi Don't blame SPL! *angry stare*
 
@salathe We should blame SPL for pthreads issues.
 
@bwoebi To be fair, pthreads issues probably are SPL's fault... somehow.
 
?
 
@bwoebi </sarcasm>
 
@salathe yes, but what do you want to teach me?
 
10:00 PM
@bwoebi how to juggle geese :)
 
@salathe not how to confuse people?
 
Bob is very sirius for his age.
 
@bwoebi I can't teach that!
 
@salathe you forgot a closing </sarcasm>, again.
 
The sarcasm hasn't ended :)
 
10:03 PM
> <sarcasm> is a special block type element which can contain only one line of text. — from some page on w3.org I can't find anymore
@salathe You don't really want to tell mean you're writing INVALID Language Markup Language?!!?!
 
I make it a point never to write valid LML :)
 
@webarto No, just s e rious
 
Exactly my point.
 
And @salathe geeses are flying high in the air.
 
I <3 Bitbucket
And kind of dislike Github
 
10:10 PM
@salathe It costs you a Planck time of your life!
 
@bwoebi This never went to vote? wiki.php.net/rfc/unset_bool
 
nope
 
282 was before my 311 and that was 10 years ago
 
@bwoebi Any reason?
 
Don't remember; at the same time I don't remember why I needed that…
 
10:16 PM
This was implemented (though I don't think related to the RFC)
What should I do with the RFC?
I'm trying to clean up the main RFC page.
 
@LeviMorrison actually I think (new foo)[0] isn't implemented?
 
@bwoebi It worked. I tested.
class foo extends ArrayObject {
	public function __construct($arr) {
		parent::__construct($arr);
	}
}

var_dump( (new foo( array(1, array(4, 5), 3) ))[1][0] ); // int(4)
 
^ just tested too…
 
{1}{0} doesn't work :(
 
Forget that archaic array access variant :x
We really should drop that in php 6
 
10:34 PM
@DanLugg Chris London, is that you?
 
No, he's Dan Lugg, doh.
 
@LeviMorrison Mark it as implemented :)
 
Poorly writen RFC, kill it.
 
@salathe Will you clean it up and mark it implemented?
I'm busy with lots of other RFC changes ^^
 
11:20 PM
@HamZa the regex you gave me the other day works like a Swiss clock :D
Probably parsed around 100 files so far.
 
@webarto ha nice !
 
I'm so pumped right now.
Where is everyone by the way? :)
Someone needs to clean the CV queue!
 
11:35 PM
I installed the StackExchange app on my phone and now my phone is vibrating everytime I get a notification vOv
 
Fancy.
I imagine such doesn't exist for Nokia 6303 :D
 
lol
 
@salathe Good! :-P
 
Hmm... so I'm "fixing" a customer's app. This may sound a bit silly, but is there a way to "upgrade" customer password hashes from plain MD5 to something that doesn't puke "RAINBOW TABLES!"?
 
@webarto what kind of "mafia involvement" do you need?
 
@Ocramius Hah, nothing much, my boss (nexcess) asked about sponsoring, they haven't answered, I've sent him the link.
 
@Ocramius Yes. Re-hash them as bcrypt(md5), then flag the row as "upgrade pending". Then in prod, if you see upgrade pending, verify with bcrypt(md5()), and if valid, re-hash as plain bcrypt...
 
You have to poke office@ibuildings.nl
 
Poked, thanks.
 
11:42 PM
yw
@ircmaxell I suppose I need to implement the "upgraded" hashing mechanism myself?
 
Salt the MD5, who cares.
 
yup, but you can use password_hash, just feed in the md5 as the "password"
 
Yup.
Be careful not to hash as MD5 again :D
 
@ircmaxell ah, if you do that directly it is awesome
I just didn't want to rewrite the security layer of zf2 to handle this :D
@webarto PLAINTEXT PASSWORDS!!1!one1!
 
I actually made an app in 2013 that uses plaintext because owner wants to fiddle with DB directly :D
It doesn't matter much, if someone got to that point, passwords would be the least worry.
 
11:46 PM
I'm not even sure if you could be fined if audited by a public authority
pretty sure you get anal-ized if you store a CVV
 
I'M THE ONE WHO AUDITS, BITCH
 
Are you a public authority? :P
 
No, but I have connections :P
 
Elbonian mafia?
 
I was thinking of employing myself in police in "high tech criminal" department when I get old and useless(er).
Contacting facebook and shit, getting private messages.
 
11:49 PM
@Ocramius Yeah, you can do it with zend as well. Just intercept the code that verifies the password, and insert your logic there...
 
@ircmaxell yeah, that's what I didn't wanna do :D
 
@Ocramius why? shouldn't be hard?
 
I'm trying to avoid touching any hashing logic at all :D
no, I just want to rely on safe defaults/upgrades
 
No, not the hashing logic
 
MD5(password)
 
11:49 PM
something dispatches it to the hashing logic, no?
 
lemme see
 
a login controller/model/service/whatever?
 
yeah, kinda
I just didn't really want to touch it :)
I'll dig my way through it, meh
 
if it's cleanly abstracted, should just be extending a single method (or 2)...
 
@Ocramius Albanian, and no, my cousin brother in law is chief of department for high tech criminal, helped him chase CP offenders once. Off the record :P
UPDATE users SET password = SHA1(password)
and then sha1(md5($password));
WIN!!!
Double encryption.
 
11:54 PM
screw that, SHA4(SHA3(SHA2(SHA1(MD5(MD4(MD3(MD2(MD1($password)))))))))
 
Beatiful.
 
@ircmaxell yes, I just wanted to avoid 2 hash comparisons if possible, as it obviously reduces security
but yeah, I'll dig and gist it here once I did it
 
@Ocramius well, check the migrated flag, and if it's set run one, if not, run the other
 
hmm, yeah, makes sense
kinda like the markers that come with the various cyphers...
 
yup
you could even do a different prefix than $2y
 
11:56 PM
Protip for @Ocramius: when in Albania, find some mean looking person and say to him "chivshe nona", he'll have to kill you for that.
 
@webarto and that means?
 
@ircmaxell that's indeed what I'm thinking
@webarto you can go to southern Italy and swear against a random god - same effect :)
 
@Ocramius yeah, either way works. Just depends if you want to do string parsing ;-)
 
@ircmaxell strpos() is hard
 
@ircmaxell "f* mother" literally, that's the worst you can say to one Albanian person, and he can kill you for that, blood revenge and what not.
Other than that, very fair and honest people.
 
11:58 PM
@webarto legally?
@Ocramius it absolutely is
 
@webarto had a funny Albanian neighbor - he was very very funny and also a good person - he was in prison 4 or 5 times while trying to escape Albania through the Greek border
 
@ircmaxell Not really, usually everyone knows about the conflict and if they kill each other or something, it's prescribed to that.
 

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