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12:11 AM
hola
 
OIS
lo ircmaxell
I didn't know this chat was so popular with big names in PHP
 
yup, been hanging out in here since it started
 
OIS
cool
I mostly agree with you in most stuff you write
 
what do you disagree with? :-)
 
I would be concerned if you always agree
 
OIS
12:19 AM
good question :)
 
I found out today that hosters are really terrible about specifying which PHP versions they support
 
Hell, I don't agree with 100% of the stuff I write about
@NikiC shared hosters at least
 
It seems like they think that "PHP 5" is the version number
@ircmaxell Yeah, that's what I've been looking at
 
OIS
I can't point to specifics atm, but if you're here Ill let you know ;) I do think you are a voice of reason however, even if I disagree with you.
 
@NikiC for that reason I think that 5.6 (or if there's a 5.7) would need to be a LTS version, supported for like 3-5 years to handle that sort of issue
 
12:24 AM
@ircmaxell Absolutely agree
I don't think that's even a question
 
well, it's not in the release process, nor voted on. Just saying
 
LTS versions would be great... when you see that 5.4 support lifetime (from release to EOL) is 3 years, it's short.
 
OIS
a PHP with ubuntu like short / long support?
 
well, I don't mind short point releases, as long as upgrades are trivial
 
We definitely can't expect that people will have updated to PHP 7 by the time PHP 5.6 goes EOL
 
12:25 AM
5.4 - 5.6 is trivial
5.2 - 5.3 and 5.3 - 5.4 are not (though 5.3 - 5.4 is easier)
 
@ircmaxell Probably depending on how bad your code was ^^ If you used register globals or magic quotes, you'd be in a pretty bad fix upgrading to 5.4
 
OIS
Monday, December 24, 2012 "The Brain Is A Muscle"
 
well, there were a bunch of other things as well
 
OIS
;)
 
@NikiC well, in this case you usually just emulate register globals/magic quotes in your auto_prepend_file (or how is that setting called?)
 
12:27 AM
@NikiC well, I just meant not trivial. It may not be difficult, just requires some inteligence
call-time-pass-by-reference, etc
 
but yeah, 5.2-5.3-5.4 had way too much time in between and time for changes…
 
more than just time, the changes were reasonably difficult
but yeah
 
Anyway, upgrading PHP is very simple: Don't write shitty code and it's a no-op :)
 
the problem there, is every release changes the definition of "shitty code"
 
OIS
most ppl write shitty php code...
 
12:28 AM
@NikiC well, if you had good PHP 3 code …
… it's really crappy 5.3 code.
 
I actually ported php3 code to php5
 
and even shittier to port to 5.5…
 
@ircmaxell Referring to 5.x compat here, not inter-major.
 
@ircmaxell then you either changed everything or used some weird hacks to restore old behaviour…
 
@NikiC I know, I was more pointing out that 5.1 good-code is very different from 5.6 good-code
@bwoebi not really, it wasn't that complex.
 
12:30 AM
And the case sensitivity discussion is up again ... somebody should just write an RFC and get the topic over with.
 
perhaps 3-4 thousand loc... not too huge
@NikiC which?
 
@ircmaxell okay, that's not too much, and even possible to do a rewrite there…
 
looking at that thread now
 
@ircmaxell It's different, but I'd say good 5.1 code should be running on 5.6 as well. Or not?
 
@bwoebi yeah, wasn't too bad since it was relatively simple
@NikiC running, yes
 
12:32 AM
Yes, of course anything written before 5.3 won't be considered good code after ;)
 
I was more just making commentary on the rapidly changing state of "best practice"
 
but the good thing is, if you didn't do too weird things, with a few ugly hacks PHP 3 code still works on PHP 7.
 
yeah
for simple code at least
 
@ircmaxell I'm wondering how intrusive making class names case sensitive would really be
 
@AndreaFaulds I don’t think making constants and variable names case-insensitive would cause a problem. <-- lolwut
 
12:34 AM
@ircmaxell even a tens of thousands LoC codebase…
 
Given how most of us use file mapping autoloaders, which require case sensitivity anway. And also given autocomplete.
 
@NikiC I think 95% of the time, no issue. the 5% would be killer
 
The main problem would be new $class - can't fix that statically if it was relying on case insensitivity
 
@ircmaxell well, I think I have to agree here. It's really unlikely to have clashes here in real world code with case insensitive const/var names…
 
uh huh ;-)
 
OIS
12:36 AM
case sensitive class names wouldn't really make an impact for me, since they are all in namespace anyway
 
I totally got to admit that I like case sensitivity mainly because it's soooooo much nicer on the implementation
 
@ircmaxell that doesn't mean that it'd be a good idea. Just saying that it wouldn't probably cause too big problems.
 
All the lowercasing is so damn ugly, not to mention slow if not cached. (And for dynamic dispatch it can't be cached, of course)
 
the "purity" side of me says sensitive should be it
 
my purity side says: "go all caps"
 
12:38 AM
however, I also realize that there's 2 decades of precedence with insensitivity, and to change that would likely be extremely non-trivial
 
CLASS FOO {
    PUBLIC FUNCTION BAR() {}
}
2
looks like SQL
 
I just thought of an awesome RFC
 
OIS
has anyone ever written code ignoring the case of class?
 
change the internal class system to no longer lowercase in the hash table, but upper case. Because tolower is ugly
 
OIS
I haven't seen that
 
12:39 AM
@ircmaxell might give it a try sometime. or probably not :(
 
man, if only April 1st was sooner
@NikiC I would wait until after 7
 
OIS
I live a sheltered life
 
@OIS yes, when the class definition was badly cased…
 
@OIS yes, mostly when using dynamic calls
 
@ircmaxell Huh? Can't do it after 7
 
12:40 AM
@NikiC you can in 8.
Means in 6 years maybe.
 
@bwoebi precisely
 
i.e. new $class where $class is some class name, in some weird case
 
I don't think you need to wait 6 years for 8
 
@bwoebi Well well, lets not start daydreaming here
 
2 after 7 would be enough
 
OIS
12:41 AM
@FlorianMargaine well, you would still white list the class names if you ran them from a variable...
 
@ircmaxell already in 3 years… well, maybe… but first do seven :o
 
Given that it will take us 10 years to bring out the next major version of PHP, please excuse me if I'm not making plans for PHP 8 yet ;)
 
OIS
PHP with full utf8 support is out when?
 
hey hey, we went so fast from 5 to 7 that you didn't even see 6!
 
@OIS My estimate: Approximately never. (Depending on what "full utf8 support" means.)
 
12:43 AM
@NikiC it'll have taken 2 years
 
@NikiC you think 10? I'm not so pessimistic here… we also have a much faster (1 year) minor release cycle, so 3-5 years are maybe realistic…
 
could take on chrome's release/version scheme and kick it up to php 30 over a couple years
 
it was 10 since 5 because of the failed 6 nearly killed the project
 
@PaulCrovella so... does it mean php will have auto-update? ;)
 
@FlorianMargaine I would +1 that
 
12:44 AM
@ircmaxell You mean two years since active work on it began? I somehow doubt that work on PHP 8 will begin immediately after the PHP 7 release.
 
@FlorianMargaine yay for auto-breaks :-)
 
@FlorianMargaine I can't see how that could possibly go wrong.
 
@ircmaxell my unicorn side says that too
 
@bwoebi I don't think the next one will be 10 years. But I don't think it will be 2 either. Probably something like 5.
 
@NikiC yeah, but 1-2 years later maybe.
 
OIS
12:44 AM
@NikiC we can do everything with utf8 we can do with ascii strings.
 
@NikiC what I said…
 
@bwoebi no no, it'd mean php would never break BC.
@PaulCrovella right? I don't see either.
 
@OIS Can't you already do that?
 
@FlorianMargaine haha :-P
 
@NikiC look at the history
 
OIS
12:45 AM
@NikiC not afaik.
 
since 1, there was a new major every 2-3 years until after 5
 
fun fact: there's a message with 51 stars in the js room
 
OIS
and what is this message?
 
@FlorianMargaine so many people look in there?
 
@bwoebi inorite
 
12:47 AM
@FlorianMargaine Hm, it's not even particularly funny
I gave it a star anyway. Maybe they'll reach the 100
 
@NikiC nope :( the highest starred one before that was way funnier
something like "you're all bastards in this room"
 
@NikiC yeah, sad that so many people are interested in Javascript ;-)
 
and it had like 40 stars
 
OIS
star everything
 
unstar everything
 
12:51 AM
done
 
@ircmaxell
 
@OIS you can talk here
@bwoebi :-P
 
OIS
ah
I just wanted to ask if I wanted to arrange a PHP talk what do you charge?
 
"a PHP talk" is very broad
 
OIS
aye, but Im sure he can make it interesting... just something
that's not on youtube ...
or even if it's on youtube, just talking afterwards over beers would be fun
 
12:54 AM
will there be pole dancing?
 
OIS
no poles
 
drug and hookers?
 
OIS
or polar beers
bears
 
blackjack?
 
OIS
12:55 AM
black jack is illegal, but poker will be legal next year
 
what do you mean "talk"?
 
OIS
like presentation of a good topic
something to help developers evolve
 
where?
 
OIS
in norway
 
oO
 
OIS
12:59 AM
this is just an idea so far
 
that's kinda far
and I do have a day job, which would make things difficult
 
hello every one
 
user3404070
hello
 
for some what reason $authAdapter->getIdentity(); is empty in zf2
 
OIS
well, if I get a little interest and funding Ill see who is available. I hope to have something for not just norwegians ...
 
user3404070
1:01 AM
guys, anyone have a general opinion for me about my question? programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/267014/…
 
user3404070
only a very general opinion is what I really need
 
any one have experince with zf2?
 
@OIS are you thinking like a conference?
 
OIS
@ircmaxell well, I was hoping more like sebastian from phpunit, you, and maybe 2 more big names, and maybe 2-4 from scandinavia
all talks in english
 
well, so a conference ;-)
 
OIS
1:03 AM
:)
 
all I usually ask is travel compensation
 
OIS
ok cool
 
good night everyone
 
good night
 
OIS
1:06 AM
gn nikic
 
@FaizRasool ya
@FaizRasool well, looks like your auth adapter has no identity :P
 
public function getAdapter()
{
if (!$this->adapter) {
  $sm = $this->getServiceLocator();
  $this->adapter = $sm->get('Zend\Db\Adapter\Adapter');
}
return $this->adapter;
}
$authAdapter = new AuthAdapter($this->getAdapter(),
'students',
'email',
'password'
);
 
OIS
isn't that a problem for stackoverflow not programmers. ?
 
@Ocramius this what i did
 
OIS
1:09 AM
wait, what is programmers ?
 
@OIS I like to think of it as SO is for implementation and programmers is for high-level design.
 
@cspray with you mate about defi.
 
Uhh... don't use the service locator like that please :-\
also: wtf, I have a hat?
@FaizRasool an auth adapter only has an identity after a successful login
the identity is then stored in the auth storage
 
@Ocramius i'm learning zend frimwork 2.
can you show me best example to follow
 
public function __construct(AuthAdapter $adapter) {...}
then write a factory for whatever that is (is it a controller?)
 
1:13 AM
$Postdata = $request->getPost();

$authAdapter = new AuthAdapter($this->getAdapter(),
'students',
'email',
'password'
);
//set user password
$authAdapter
->setIdentity($form->getValue('email'))
->setCredential($form->getValue('password'));


//echo the result
echo $authAdapter->getIdentity() . "\n\n";

// Print the result row
print_r($authAdapter);
this is what i did in whole
yes it is controller
 
OIS
@Ocramius if you write code like that you can make it into a service for symfony 2
 
try a var_dump($authAdapter->authenticate())
@OIS services are framework-agnostic in first place. You can pretty much take any code I wrote and use it in both ZF2 and SF2 interchangeably ;-)
 
All code is just for learning
 
@FaizRasool instead of ->getIdentity() try ->authenticate()
 
error
A value for the identity was not provided prior to authentication with DbTable.
 
OIS
1:16 AM
@Ocramius aye I love that :)
 
im new to zend lol...zend seems like im dealing with rocket sc
 
nah, it just looks like that because there are 40Mb of library :P
 
OIS
I have to say I don't really like lerdorfs take on frameworks
he's saying they're slow, I think of it as rapid development and no rewrite of code
 
nowadays good jobs need zend
in London
.....
 
@OIS there are various takes on that. Frameworks are just one possible solution
@FaizRasool please call it ZendFramework :P Zend is a company, while ZendFramework is the thing I work on :P
(and it's a community project)
 
1:19 AM
A value for the identity was not provided prior to authentication with DbTable.
yes zf
 
Yeah, paste your current code, I'd say
 
ok let me create paste bin
 
OIS
but frameworks save so much time on development, and done right you can scale high. if you need to scale higher you can higher ppl to rewrite it in faster languages...
* hire
if that ever happens
 
why do frameworks save you time on development instead of, say, using libraries?
in both cases you don't reinvent the wheel
 
I will not start discussing that: I have my own opinions which I discussed many many times :)
 
OIS
1:21 AM
well, someone has to write the library
 
@OIS well, someone has to write the framework
 
OIS
framework is both a library and a guide
 
you'll find a library for mostly everything
 
fwiw, @FaizRasool is just using a library in this particular FW
just to stop useless re-iteration of an old discussion that ends always the same way.
 
1:22 AM
@Ocramius i included my local and global php
 
@FaizRasool did you validate the form? Because the values may be empty :P
empty = null = no value
 
yes i did
let me echo it
just in case
 
OIS
and with symfony2 I can write code which is used on one server, or when needed one or more bundles are moved to their own server as RESTFUL microservice, then if needed with loadbalancer
 
var_dump(). don't print_r() or echo ;-)
 
@OIS I'll stop the discussion because Ocramius doesn't want to keep going, but your argument applies as well to libraries. Cheers
 
1:25 AM
ok let me do it.
$request->getPost(); has value
 
OIS
libraries are usually not so easy to extract to use as service
 
in var_dump
$form->getValue('email')
is empty
 
@FaizRasool there we go ;-)
 
even im using $form->setData($request->getPost());
@Ocramius you are star mate
 
@zerkms that tweet is a bit bad, but it is sadly true :|
 
1:27 AM
@Ocramius ?
The one about Bieber?
 
yeah :X
 
hm, why?
but anyway
 
it shows how rotten the entire thing is
 
I'm confused why people around care so much about gender
@Ocramius I don't care if you're a male or female or a Mario
I do care that you do OSS
 
@Ocramius can you help me why my form value is empty
 
1:29 AM
I fully agree. I also myself am not involved actively in the thing because I prefer doing actual work there
 
@Ocramius that's right. Some people care about gender of audience, others just do "the shit done"
 
@zerkms that doesn't mean that there is a problem, but I also agree that Justin Bieber's audience has also a gender problem
 
It does not
JB has a well defined target audience
 
link to tweet?
 
1:31 AM
@FaizRasool seems like your form elements have no validators attached or are allowed to be empty
 
OIS
what bieber tweet?
no bieber on twitter.com/zerkms
 
@oc
@Ocramius please review pastebin.com/72XEwsyK
 
and also the code inside if($form->isValid()){
 
@FaizRasool the setInputFilter call is invalid
 
1:32 AM
is excuting
yes i think
 
OIS
ah
 
one and only warning, i will not tolerate posts like that
2 messages moved to bin
 
ok
it was not a joke actually
 
I gave you the benefit of the doubt and assumed it was a joke
if you want to remove the doubt...
 
I just said what I said
 
1:38 AM
@Ocramius inputfiltercall is valid as i can see
 
I'll take my leave and let everyone to reflect on their own endocrine system and the analogies with other species.
 
OIS
@ircmaxell the solution to your twitter problem is obvious, increase percentage of females in development. Implementation not so easy.
 
well, the implementation is the details that I would like to know :-P
 
How about increasing the quality of produced software instead?
 
It's not just that. I would really call it "be more kawaii"
 
1:40 AM
Isn't what we should care about?
 
not a joke, really.
 
@Ocramius you mean that development is too serious?
 
also.
There is a general feeling of coldness, and tbh, I don't care.
 
OIS
@Ocramius are you saying women aren't logical?
 
no, I'm saying that women are more empathic.
That's why all jobs that are related with human care (education, health, antropology, etc) are more targeted by one gender than the other
 
1:43 AM
@Ocramius you are star man, because of you i solved my problem. thank you very much.object(Zend\Authentication\Result)#312 (3) { ["code":protected]=> int(1) ["identity":protected]=> string(17) "faiz" ["messages":protected]=> array(1) { [0]=> string(26) "Authentication successful." } }
 
@FaizRasool awesome :-) Consider joining on IRC btw, #zftalk on freenode.
 
Is programming really the only industry where members do care of the gender ratio?
Haven't heard complaints from, say, butchers
Or is it the industry-unaware "problem"?
 
Men are less empathic because the testosterone is actually a hormone that causes our feelings to lead us to conflict, competition and in general "aiming at glory"
 
OIS
soldiers prolly have a better female to male ratio then programmers...
 
@OIS "better"?
 
OIS
1:44 AM
as in more equal
 
why is it "better"?
 
OIS
50% is "better"
 
is it?
Split your salary to 50% and give half to me
 
@zerkms you are russian tho, no? You probably are used to those weird laws that forbid some jobs to women
 
50% of salary is better than 100
 
OIS
1:45 AM
aye, as in programming is something which gender should have no say in, since its "intellectual"
 
All I will say, I am offended by this conversation
 
@Ocramius I don't, I don't care of gender and age, I care of result quality
 
I agree there, but still, there is a problem and I personally think that it cannot be fixed in a consumerist world :P
 
because marketing lives on this problem :P
 
1:46 AM
it is a problem if you call it so
 
@Ocramius thanks.
 
OIS
well a lot of areas have benefitted from more female participation. I bet programming would too.
 
that's right - there is no rationale behind it, it's just marketing
 
@zerkms products are made by humans. There is a problem with women in tech, at least wrt attitude.
 
@OIS programming would benefit from a good engineers
@FlorianMargaine what is the problem?
 
OIS
1:47 AM
@zerkms programming would benefit from new thoughts and new ideas.
 
@zerkms are you serious?
 
@OIS exactly.
@FlorianMargaine yep
(seriously, yes)
 
And we wonder why we don't see more women in tech. When discussions like this happen
 
I probably a dumb but I seriously cannot understand why you care so much about that
@ircmaxell I do care of good engineers and solutions
 
women in tech are often not seen as "real techies"
 
1:48 AM
@ircmaxell make an example discussion that you'd like to see and blog about it, I'd say
 
I'd rather not see a discussion about "it's just marketing"
 
I personally don't think how having XX instead of XY chromosomes makes the industry better
 
It actually is mostly marketing. Every time I turn on the TV I see sexist ads/jokes and that's it
 
I see that industry becomes better when we have good professionals
 
There is nothing healthy happening here.
 
1:49 AM
movie comedy is based on a lot of sexist jokes and such
the entire justin bieber thing that @zerkms mentioned is because of the marketing behind the figure of that douchebag kiddo
 
OIS
@ircmaxell I would too, but reading stories from female programmers about how they are treated isn't fun
 
and marketing knows what you want (not your brain, you as a whole)
 
@zerkms I don't care about chromosomes. I care about good developers being driven away by conversations like this and replies like yours
 
quip.com/r69HA9GhGa7J - Possibly of interest @ircmaxell @LeviMorrison
 
@ircmaxell I seriously don't understand what it means
you mentioned in your tweet that you treat difference in chromosomes a problem
and now you say you don't
 
1:51 AM
you don't understand, and that's the problem
 
....... my comment
 
I don't - because there is no problem
 
OIS
@zerkms there was a study once about 2 CVs identivcal except male and female names. male names was regarded higher.
 
Ok, I'm done. Let's stop this unproductive conversation
 
OIS
* identical
/not related to php or programming
 
1:52 AM
@OIS when I helped to choose interns for us - I didn't look at names at all
@OIS so we chose the ones that fit our requirements better
regardless of their gender, nationality or religion
from the other hand - when we had a position for senior C++ developer - we did not have any application from any female
so females did not want to apply by themselves
why to force them to do what they don't want to?
I'm done as well
 
@Ocramius I am feeling lazy and haven't checked - has there been any move to redo zend/code with nikic/PHP-Parser ?
 
OIS
@zerkms good except bad. in a field with a high gender inequality, you actually should consider givering the less represented gender preferential treatmeant
 
@Danack no, and will unlikely happen before we split the repo into smaller libs
 
@OIS we should not. We should prefer engineers that fit our demands better
Those demands are technical specifically
 
@Ocramius Is there any approximate eta on that? 6 months, 2 years?
 
1:55 AM
@Danack I've been stuck maintaining rather than actually refactoring :-\
@Danack I'd say 6 months for the split, and from then we can move to a next major version of Zend\Code
I'd also like to use the php-parser
 
@Ocramius you work for zend?
 
@FlorianMargaine only as a teacher, occasionally
 
@Danack that's horrible (the relationships of type Any)
 
OIS
@zerkms if that was something of old no teachers would be female ?
 
1:58 AM
@OIS I have no idea - I care of education quality, not of genders
(and after all you call me sexist?)
 
@Ocramius Cool. Feel free to rope me into splitting that lib off at least - I found another bug in zend/code that's probably not worth fixing, if it's going to be done properly in 6 months.
 
@Danack I'd still ask you to report it, if you can
 

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