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7:00 AM
This was extremely helpful. You tought me alot. Thank you very much. — Road Rash 4 hours ago
I... I helped someone....
This feeling, welling up in my body.... <333
 
> MRI's Method Caches - improving Ruby VM performance
> This blog post is surprisingly uninflammatory
^ lol
 
I'm new to StackOverflow (registered yesterday), is it the best place around to ask technical questions about things like Visual Studio hurdles, CMake configuration issues and other similar stuff? Or is it just a waste of time and there are better places?
 
VS doesn't jump hurdles, sorry
@MickaëlPointier Ask on Stack Overflow (not in chat)
 
No but it easy stumbles in these
I asked the question on SO already, just wondering if it was the best place :)
 
And that's not a waste of time unless you ask low value questions (the once that are answered in beginner's tutorials or in mutes of googling)
 
7:08 AM
Ok. Well, days of googling failed me so I guess it's not an obvious one. Will wait and see I guess.
 
@MickaëlPointier Ah. On that question (which seems to be about neither VS or CMake?) I'd say: virtual machine images and well-documented development environment documentation
A build farm should do. Perhaps azure even has things for that. Or you can do a hyper box with ~64G RAM to host some 32 different target hosts.
 
(The guestion was not about CMake, but the ultimate goal is to build solutions with CMake, did not want to make the question more complex)
 
@ThePhD What is that, Shakira on dope? ;)
 
I agree this sucks, but it (a) appears to be a design spirit of Windows/VS/etc (b) appears to be what Microsoft itself are doing internally too
 
@MickaëlPointier Sure, why not? As long as it is about programming and the questions aren't too vague...
 
7:11 AM
@f
 
My computer is too powerful for Star Wars: KotoR. :(
 
@FredOverflow Whether it was dope or a metric fuckton of weed, the person who made that song was so chilled out their music chilled the fuck out with them.
 
If I use OpenMP in an SSE program would it run faster?
 
@FredOverflow I have colleagues who have asked complex questions and never really gotten any interesting answer, so it seemed to us that people on SO were generally answering to low hanging fruits with easy answer for easy points grab.
 
@MickaëlPointier You got us, we are all just in for the rep.
@Mikhail Each core has its own SSE unit, so speedups are definitely possible.
 
7:13 AM
Well, I would be glad to be proved wrong :)
 
@FredOverflow this is what I wanted, thanks
 
@Mikhail Assuming you are computation bound and not memory bound of course.
 
@MickaëlPointier That's natural. And there are plenty of people who are interested in the challenging questions, but yeah, you've got to make sure they show plenty of potential and prior research;
As a rule of thumb people are only going to go along solving your problem if (a) they have solved it/similar before (b) they anticipate they might encounter the same thing in the future
 
I'm going try the OpenMP. I got something that takes 36ms and it must take 30 ms
 
@MickaëlPointier You mean localized crap which boils down to "fix my shit for free"?
 
7:16 AM
Probably.
 
@DomagojPandža No. Probably :)
 
not sure what you mean by 'localized crap'
 
@MickaëlPointier "localized" is like "what do I do if my keyboard has a pink key for 'q' and my customer requires all-blue data entry"? :)
 
StackOverflow people tend to answer questions which have a certain grace, importance and elegance to them. Something that is considered of value to everyone, now and in the future. General problems, ideas and concepts behind various languages, frameworks, operating systems etc.
3
 
Those long winded questions that are very specialised that only very few select people can solve?
 
7:17 AM
@Mikhail On that scale, parallelizing will only work for the most specific cases and if you use pre-existing threads - or the overhead will swamp the gains
 
@DomagojPandža Wow, that was beautiful.
 
I know, I cried.
 
@Rapptz The latter part is not relevant. The problem would be that the result is not of interest to anyone else
 
@FredOverflow Have a star. <3
 
@sehe Yep, this is what happened to me last time. pthreads was 1.7 speedup on 2 cores and OpenMP was 0.5. I hope I do it right this time
 
7:19 AM
@sehe Which is a result from having only a few select people solving it. If it's very narrow then no one will be interested enough to upvote.
 
@DomagojPandža I'm sure he meant: "that was exceptionally vague, and also repeating what @sehe said, but less vague"
 
I see. Well makes sense yes. Questions that have answers that can benefit more than just the author of the question.
 
@Mikhail Don't hope. Plan, and expect. Then, if you miss the mark, at least you'll learn and know it wasn't a mistake you should have prevented.
@Rapptz That's untrue, IMO. Lot's of things that only a few people could do are useful to millions of people.
 
@Mikhail If you have a good profiler you should be able to see how much time is spent in the code and how much time is wasted in memory/cache stalls. If you are in the later case parallelizing will just make the code slower.
 
@sehe Maybe he meant only a few people could benefit from?
 
7:21 AM
@MickaëlPointier I'm using visual studio 2012 stock...
 
Anyways, time to get some sleep. You guys have a nice day!
 
@Rapptz I can see what you're getting at ("niche") but that's not required. If only Jon Skeet can reason about a localization problem in .NET DateTime, that doesn't mean that his rationale and usage guideline (Use DateTime.ConvertBloopToBlarg) isn't helpful to anyone else using DateTime
@DomagojPandža "Maybe"? That's what he said. And what I said. So yeah, I hope so :|
 
Okay.
 
@MickaëlPointier I'm guessing you didn't miss this:
14 mins ago, by sehe
@MickaëlPointier Ah. On that question (which seems to be about neither VS or CMake?) I'd say: virtual machine images and well-documented development environment documentation
^ so I'll take it you're either satisfied / not interested
 
@sehe I was thinking about it. The virtual image would work for the build system, but that would not solve the problem for individual developers that have to fight with VS updates and multiple versions of SDKs that have to be installed in particular order. Forcing devs to use virtual images would make developpement very uncomfortable.
 
7:25 AM
 
Lol.
Well, he's a smart kid at least. :P
 
user142019
If I use PBKDF2, do I have to store the salt?
 
@Zoidberg Who else would store it for you? :)
 
user142019
bcrypt stores the salt together with the hash.
 
@jalf Sony would, along with all your credit card information in plaintext on their servers.
 
7:28 AM
@Zoidberg btw, good on you for using a proper hashing algorithm :)
 
@MickaëlPointier Really? Well, i've done so with good success. Unless you need direct GPU access, there's really not much reason why VMs should suck on modern hardware. Also, this is the "have well documented dev environments" part of the plan: make it painless by having it all documented. You could even just use unattended installers/ghost images (think... PXE boot?) to have it pushed if you have enough developers who need to reinstall often enough
 
user142019
@jalf BUT THE TUTORIALS SAY USE MD5!
 
Isn't MD5 kinda shitty?
 
@Zoidberg That's the test
@ThePhD No. But it is, for password security
 
user142019
So I need two fields right? For bcrypt you only need one field.
 
user142019
7:29 AM
PasswordHash    text NOT NULL,
PasswordSalt    text NOT NULL,
 
9
A: Is Scala the next big thing?

Mike DunlaveyLemmings supposedly run off cliffs. Programmers run after Next Big Things. Meanwhile, as hardware gets bigger and faster, software gets bigger and slower. What's going on here?

 
@sehe I'm working in a video game development shop, so all very much DX11 and stuff like that. The problem with documented dev environment is that it's not doable anymore since MS released VS2012, way too many interdependencies with the .net framework that can get updated due to some random application or windows update requiring them. It's a real mess. I had to reinstall VS2010 on three machines due to installs gotten broken because of a .net update.
 
interesting answer :D
 
PasswordSaltyHash brown TEXT VERY DELICIOUS,
 
@ThePhD depends on what you use it for. But it's rarely the best option
 
7:31 AM
morning all
 
@MickaëlPointier About DX11 - okay, that makes VMs unattractive
@MickaëlPointier On the ... "~FUD" (sorry for shortcut): well, if it's not doable anyway, there is no point in making it automated. It's just that windows doesn't actually lend itself for XCOPY deployment, even of SDKs.
Shame on Microsoft, but you can't trust it to work when deployed from source control. You can make it work but it will (a) take a lot of effort (think registry, side by side cache, manifest tweaking for com registration etc.) (b) be unsupported
I'd say: it's probably worth it, but keep the large images out of source control. It makes more sense to have SDK-3.4-rev0001.zip and SDK-3.4-rev0037.zip on a file server and backup, anyways
 
ergh... put on some metal band in Grooveshark... some damn rap song is the warm up song
 
user142019
We got a database table in our test and it used floating point numbers to store monetary values. :'(
 
@Zoidberg o_0 I hope you don't work for anything that has anything to do with my money
 
user142019
I mean the exam. :P
 
7:37 AM
@Zoidberg Wait, what database even has floating point numeric columns? AFAICT all databases have decimal encoded numbers (hint you didn't even say that it wasn't decimal floats)
 
I want my € 0.000001
Morning Robot
 
user142019
@sehe PostgreSQL has decimal and real.
 
real?! I'd be surprised if another vendor had the same (except, likely, MSSQL)
 
/me is thinking
 
As opposed to fake.
 
7:38 AM
@MickaëlPointier /break the bad habit :)
@ThePhD phony on T-SQL
 
damn, I arrived late
 
Hehehe
 
@EtiennedeMartel I just noticed, we appear to subtly at war :P (Look at our little extra one line thing on out name plates)
 
@DeadMG Well don't just chat with us!
Get in there!
 
I am in there
 
7:40 AM
Oh.
Well go hock a LEWGie at some proposals!
Getitgetitgetigetitgeti?
 
@DeadMG Job interview? May as well head home if it was for me.
 
no, I'm meeting in the Committee
 
^ Ruby dev: "how about we have some random cache expiration logic instead of, you know, frequency based?
 
@DeadMG lardy dar, what about?
 
7:41 AM
@DeadMG fashionably, I hope
 
@DeadMG Is it moist and warm? Enjoy it while it lasts!
2
 
currently considering N3493
 
@sehe don't be silly, he's a puppy
 
@FredOverflow ew
 
@DeadMG ...
 
7:43 AM
what?
 
@DeadMG care to expand?
 
user142019
@DeadMG …
 
@DeadMG Oh, that's nice. I'd like that
 
OpenMP took a 150ms operation and made it 400ms
 
7:43 AM
@Mikhail congrats
 
@Mikhail No. You did.
 
this is 1/n where is the number of cores
I BLAME OPENMP
fuck this shit i'm going back to mpi\
 
you've discovered that asking the compiler to please parallelize your code is not guaranteed to make it faster
 
:-)
yes but should
 
@Mikhail Sure, the compiler should also remove the bugs from your code
 
7:44 AM
@Mikhail Wut? These aren't even related. How will you hope to get better performance from IPC than from multi threads
 
And it should make you coffee too, while it's at it
 
@sehe it was a joke
 
@jalf Sometimes it optimises your bugs out!
 
@Mikhail Wokay. That was obvious
 
@Mikhail not if your code has very little to parralellise, you will waste more time trying to sort out parralellising it then you gain from actually doing it in parralell
 
7:45 AM
Everytime I use OpenMP I end up doing the parralelism by hand and it works, thats why I am sad
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Mmm. Isn't that, like, only possible with copy-initialization and assignment operators that have surprising effects?
 
parallel not parralel
 
user142019
Oorlel.
 
@Mikhail That's what I've learned. Of course you need to control it. You're the human
 
@DeadMG parralell
 
7:46 AM
@DeadMG threading issues, sorry
 
lol
 
¬_¬ ppaarraalllleell
 
27 mins ago, by sehe
@Mikhail Don't hope. Plan, and expect. Then, if you miss the mark, at least you'll learn and know it wasn't a mistake you should have prevented.
 
@sehe maybe in 5 years I won't need to...
 
@Mikhail Mmm? You will be out of a job?
 
7:48 AM
@sehe I do physics... I'm not much of a programmer
 
@sehe Any kind of UB, actually.
 
But seriously, the code is a for loop that applies the atan function to every pixel in an image. If openmp can't do that, its worthless...
 
It can optimise your buggy loop conditions away, for example.
 
@Mikhail It can parallelize it just fine, an I can tell you why it's slower
 
¬_¬ why? Foo getAFoo(A a, B b, C c){ return Foo(a,b,c); } come on now
 
7:49 AM
OpenMP does not solve all other optimization problems
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Ah - well, you can't really say that the bugs are optimized-out in the case of UB :) It's just that the UB is made more friendly...
@Mikhail Depends. You said it's an operation that takes very little time. If you can't chunk it extremely effectively, then there is no way in hell it is ever going to get faster.
 
@Mikhail False sharing. if you're iterating through the image contiguously, then you have false sharing. Each pixel requires the surrounding cache line to be loaded into the core updating it. At the same time, another core is updating the neighboring pixel, which is on the same cache line. So they have to wait for each others and send the cache line from one core to the other. End result: slower than singlethreaded
 
@sehe Thanks for taking the time to think of the problem and giving suggestions.
 
You need to scatter the accesses more. Give each core a separate part of the image, for example. (Separate rows of pixels, perhaps)
 
@jalf but I trust OpenMP to bifurcate my image vector. wtf is it doing
I need to sleep this makes me sad
 
7:52 AM
@Mikhail I haven't seen your code, but I would assume that it parallelizes your code. No more, no less.
 
You can also sometimes change the picture structure to facilitate cache efficiency. Like the 'swizzled' format used by some graphics cards that made bilinear filtering more efficient.
 
@MickaëlPointier Wokay. I hope you get some ideas from it. Note that sysadmins may have much more expertise with unattended setups/ghosting and the lot (RES manager, Acronis/Symantec come to mind) --> Server Fault
 
Don't trust OpenMP to do anything for you other than what it's supposed to do.
 
The greatest in UB power.
 
@jalf You haven't asked how many pixels there are. If the image is small, parallelizing will hurt by definition.
@Mysticial +1
 
7:54 AM
@MickaëlPointier <3 Swizzling
 
@sehe sure
 
@sehe I think you could replace "OpenMP" with any programming tool.
 
@ThePhD I had a lot of fun working on swizzled textures on Dreamcast :)
 
8 mins ago, by sehe
@Mikhail That's what I've learned. Of course you need to control it. You're the human
indeed
We recall. And ideone.com has 1Gb of snippets to prove it :)
 
The term is just so fun anyways.
Swizzling.
Mmm.
 
7:56 AM
I think it was ThePhD doing the swizzling
 
It's like a dance.
Ahh, come Swizzle with me, honey~
 
There's also 'twiddling' as a synonym I think
 
I find OpenMP only useful as a scripting tool. Or in very small applications, or as the top-level parallelism in a larger one.
 
@MickaëlPointier Nah. Twiddling is for bit-oriented algorithms
@Mysticial Precisely what I've come to conclude
 
7:57 AM
We have ourselves a white hat!
 
lol
 
=[
You moved my cowboy_cast to the Real C++ room? DD:
q_q
 
@sehe Twiddled textures was the name used on DC: cadcdev.sourceforge.net/softprj/twiddle.c
 
@sehe but he was talking about execution time in the hundreds of ms. That should be enough for parallelization to be beneficial
 
@Mikhail Have you posted your code somewhere?
 
8:04 AM
@ThePhD you should follow. I believe jalf already explained you what's wrong with this shit
 
=[
 
bad code is bad code. Deal with it.
 
user142019
Bad code is good code.
 
It's also useless as fuck.
 
8:07 AM
@Neil I can hardly see the purpose of this image.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Saying the same thing while making sure to waste ten times as much screen space.
 
A fish is any member of a paraphyletic group of organisms that consist of all gill-bearing aquatic craniate animals that lack limbs with digits. Included in this definition are the living hagfish, lampreys, and cartilaginous and bony fish, as well as various extinct related groups. Most fish are ectothermic ("cold-blooded"), allowing their body temperatures to vary as ambient temperatures change, though some of the large active swimmers like white shark and tuna can hold a higher core temperature. Fish are abundant in most bodies of water. They can be found in nearly all aquatic envi...
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes maybe he wanted to say that ten times instead
 
llooks like LEWG will approve n3493
 
@BartekBanachewicz A picture is worth a thousand words, man
 
8:10 AM
@DeadMG Which is?
 
That's a thousand word post right there.
 
@Neil When those thousand words consist of 333 repetitions of "DEAL WITH IT", followed by a solitary "DEAL", you would have done better quiet.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes 1003 then
 
Xeo
@ThePhD indices
@DeadMG Neat
 
Yaaay
Indices trick is now std:: then? <33
 
8:15 AM
Now let's just hope compiler writers will take the hint and make it O(1).
 
O(n) :3c
 
@Neil how is 1003 divisable by 3? You meant 1002
 
one of the reasons LEWG wants to Standardise is to encourage a primitive
 
@DeadMG I am a primitive and I feel encouraged
 
@ThePhD No, O(1).
O(n) is silly, especially if you can make it yourself O(log N).
 
8:17 AM
@BartekBanachewicz Not sure why it must be divisible by 3
 
Anything worse than O(log N) is worthless.
 
1000 words + "Deal" + "with" + "it"
 
it's just template<int...>?
 
Well, you can also make it O(1) yourself, up to some arbitrarily chosen upper bound.
But that involves more parsing for the compiler, so I am not sure it would speed up anything.
 
Isn't O(n) always O(1) if you're willing to set an upper bound?
:)
 
8:23 AM
and n3493 passes LEWG to LWG
 
@jalf Shut up :P
 
Xeo
Did Jonathan have the log N version in his paper?
He mentioned he put it in a revision
 
yes
essentially
 
Xeo
Hm... I'm wondering how one could make the log N version reuse the max amount of prior instantiations
Btw robot, saw the constexpr parameters guy on std-proposals?
 
8:30 AM
I saw a title and that was it.
Don't tell me it was worth reading?
 
user142019
> ERROR: Unable to load Email/Address.pm into plperl at line 2.
 
user142019
:'(
 
:D
That's what you get for using perl.
 
Btw, I have this thing that I want you guys to have a look at github.com/rmartinho/ogonek/blob/iterators-must-go/include/…. See how both front and pop_front waste work by calling decode_one_ex twice (that's a temporary mid-refactoring name btw; there will be no _ex when I'm done). I can fix it by adding a bit more state to the object, but I wonder if this might help derive a slightly better sequence interface. /cc @Luc @Xeo
 
now up for discussion: std::any
 
8:38 AM
Like boost::any ?
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes No, but the deleted second mail was lol
I wonder why he deleted it
 
Hmm, I have that on my mailbox anyway.
@Xeo Do you mean "I'm more concerned with the C++ community trying to keep adding more and more hacky solutions (...)"?
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Kinda? More like, "good luck getting that into the language, sucker"
Luc expressed some concerns wrt my paper, btw. That it's also one of those "proposals to solve exactly one problem / use-case".
 
I agree with him in general, even though I disagree that bringing tuple syntax is the general solution.
 
Xeo
I'd really like tuple deconstruction, tbh though
 
8:44 AM
I think polymorphic lambdas + algorithms is a much better solution.
 
Xeo
for(auto (a, b) : stuff)
 
@Xeo for (tuple<auto, auto> : stuff)!
 
@BartekBanachewicz Great! Now you unpacked the tuple into... no variables.
 
was tie mentioned already then? :/
 
std::tie is a tad bothersome.
 
Xeo
8:47 AM
Needs default-constructability
Which is annoying
 
anyway, I think auto (a,b) will break
 
Xeo
And can't have proper scoping
@BartekBanachewicz It also really wasn't the syntax I want
Just an idea
 
@Xeo It's easy enough to write a tuple unpacking/packing forwarding function adapter, and it disencourages loops.
 
auto has that fucking previous meaning, so one's gotta be careful
 
LEWG uncomfortable with std::any it seems
 
8:48 AM
@DeadMG no wonder
btw, are we getting std::optional?
 
discussion this afternoon
 
@DeadMG What's the issue?
 
for which I might be in Library
@R.MartinhoFernandes The way in which std::function is std::any (but object must meet concept)
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Sure, but moving everything into a lambda is also bothersome
 
so they're concerned whether they'll want to replace any when concepts are ready
 
8:49 AM
@Xeo Why?
 
Xeo
It feels weird, I think
 
also, not having an equivalent variant proposal
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes polymorphic lambdas are in general something friggin awsum, but I am already afraid how the hell things like lundi are supposed to work with them
 
@Xeo (I'm assuming nice polymorphic lambdas, btw)
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Still
 
8:52 AM
The only thing lambdas lose you are non-local returns. And then I point you to std::find :P
@DeadMG FWIW, I think variant is zillions more important than any
 
Xeo
yea
 
yea
but what about bool overload? :/
 
any is what we have a proposal for
 
THIS IS COMPLETELY ANNOYING. This resolution rules falls short achieving a so basic concept. Maybe the OP "by declaration order" intuitive approach would do a better job. — chico Dec 8 '12 at 1:20
lol
 
and the LEWG isn't too happy with it, it seems
 
8:55 AM
You don't put any in your interfaces; it is always an implementation detail, right? variant, however, is much more useful in interfaces and having it as standard makes libraries using it easier to adopt.
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Not sure I understand?
 
void f() {
    for(auto x : xs) {
        return;
    }
}
void g() {
    for_each(xs, []{
        return;
    });
}
@Xeo Basically this.
 

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