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6:00 PM
Who's you?
 
I'm just basing it off my memory of how he looked like when he met one of the moderators in an SE opening.
 
did MS really shutdown MSN?
 
Yes
 
@Rapptz Yeah, the beard was longer then (and I was smiling...)
 
@user9000 The website is still up.
 
6:02 PM
I think he means the messenger service.
 
yeah but I meant the messenger or whatever
 
It's going down in March 2013.
 
It is?
 
WOW that's one BADASS beard.
 
I haven't used since two years or something. For some reason I haven't felt the need for it. Probably because there are so many alternative channels (Facebook, mail, sms..)
 
6:03 PM
@StackedCrooked Being merged with Skype.
 
Well, that's good.
MSN, for a very long time, was kind of just this sprawling monster.
 
Do you guys GNU/Linux?
*use
 
I like MSN. :(
 
@Rapptz Stockholm Syndrome, my friend. Stockholm Syndrome.
You don't have to like MSN anymore. Don't worry, it can't hurt you.
 
Um. It's the only way I have contact of people from 1999.
 
6:08 PM
Well, upgrade them.
 
Well, 3 of my MSN contacts are actually dead. :P
So there's that too.
Anyway gonna go out to eat.
 
ooookay.
Have fun!
Yep, this is gonna be tough........
 
Ell
@user9000 I do :3
 
I need to create a multi-function dispatcher of millions of different kinds of functions with variable amounts of arguments.
 
=P
distro?
 
Ell
6:14 PM
linux mint 14 and ubuntu 12.04
and turnkey linux mediawiki, github, lamp
 
Yeah, I don't know the term for the equivalent of a DispatchTimer or something like that... guess I'll just haveta figure it out.
 
Matz really sucks at presentation.
 
Ell
Hmm I need a way for people to pay each time they use my service, I'm thinking of people having to buy tokens on the android store
Not sure how the authentication/etc. will work
 
@ThePhD What? Multi-function dispatcher ain't that hard but variable arguments? You're going to fuck the type system in the arsehole.
 
@Ell What is the service?
 
Ell
6:25 PM
@StackedCrooked ummm errrr maths homework auto-doer thing :L
 
Okay... VS2012's linker isn't noticeably faster than VS2010... bummer...
 
Ell
I'm trying to think of a way so I don't get caught and expelled :P
 
@Ell You expect students to pay money for that? :)
 
Ell
@StackedCrooked they would :P
like 40p a pop
multiply that by 50
that's like, £20
a fortune I tell you.
 
Math auto-doer? You mean a TI-89 or TI-Nspire CX CAS?
 
Ell
6:30 PM
haha
It does homework set on an online website which teachers can check and record results
 
Wolfram Alpha? :D
 
Ell
Can't always help :L
That requires effort and time anyway
Mine would be:
login to my website -> choose task -> set score -> go!
and then bam, you have no more homework :P
 
What kind of math? I might be thinking way too high
I forgot you were in High School.
 
Ell
It's simple stuff
 
Yeah I figured. lol
 
Ell
6:35 PM
from primary school through to A level, it doesn't go any higher than that
 
You should do LaTeX output too so you can get things like this
 
Ell
from sums to 20 to differentiation from first principles and other stuff
 
@Rapptz Eww... math...
 
@Mysticial Math is beautiful. :)
 
Ell
Well actually, it doesn't figure out the answers, it just impersonates the client and sends a GET to the server :P
 
6:37 PM
I feel bad for people who write math books.
I can't imagine writing 1000+ pages in LaTeX.
Might as well just die..
 
Sometimes a mistake in your equations can result in x = x + 1. Is there a name for this?
 
Yeah. A mistake.
 
Ell
Off by one error?
 
^^
 
though if x = infinity it's actually correct
 
Ell
6:39 PM
depends what x is
 
@Ell I'm talking about solving math equations. Not programming :)
 
Ell
@StackedCrooked It was a stab in the dark really :L
 
The implication is that 0 = 1, 0 = 2, etc.. So all numbers would be equal.
 
This VS2012 linker is not very impressive... :(
 
Oh god integrals
 
6:40 PM
But at least the new interface is good.
 
@StackedCrooked Yes.
 
*after fixing the ALL CAPS menu.
 
@StackedCrooked Are you talking about abstract math?
 
@StackedCrooked Being wrong?
 
Contradiction.
Also I bet there's a numerical system in which this is true.
 
6:42 PM
@Rapptz I guess. (Isn't math always abstract?)
 
Category theory bitches
 
I bet you like that only because it begins with "Cat".
 
I like that because monads
 
I'm flabbergasted.
 
6:47 PM
And now I'm going to get drunk and watch weird anime with a friend
 
Though to be honest, the first thing I thought of was
 
(Guess which one)
 
Eww... more math...
 
@CatPlusPlus Weird anime? Hm.. FLCL?
 
6:47 PM
I don't even have to read that to know it divides by zero somewhere.
 
@CatPlusPlus :P
 
@StackedCrooked No
 
One Piece
 
Oh, there you go, a - b - c is 0
 
@Mysticial Interface wise i prefer vs2010
 
6:49 PM
I'm slow today
 
Paranoid Agent is also weird but something I'd watch with a friend.
Detroit Metal City would be good to watch with company.
 
He is obviously watching boku no pico
 
@CatPlusPlus Yep.
 
@Pubby He is watching anata no pico?
 
@StackedCrooked I dunno
 
6:51 PM
Was a silly joke.
 
@johnathon I like how you can expand a source or header file to see all the stuff in it.
The ALL CAPS menus would've been a deal breaker if it couldn't be disabled.
 
That's really important thing
 
@Mysticial True, but afik my 2010 does that as well. Could be the visual assist x doing it though :))
 
@johnathon If it was in VS2012, it's either disabled by default, or I never found it.
The optimizer isn't noticeably better than VS2010.
I can't comment on compile times since those are never a problem because you can parallel compile.
The linker times have always pissed me off, and it hasn't gotten better in VS2012.
 
@Mysticial Really , iv'e used 2012 for one lil project using atl/wtl, just to give it a test drive. It's nice, )o0o0 if you want to get info on the compiler updates with 2012 the backend is multithreaded, and auto vectorization and auto parallization of the code is nice
 
Ell
6:55 PM
The best maths is decision maths
 
The auto-vectorization and auto-parallelization doesn't matter to me since I do them manually when it matters.
 
@Mysticial Jim Hogg and Mr Ratigan did a couple videos on channel 9 about it.. yea.. But it's nice to not have to drop down to asm , considering compiling for 64 bit the asm keyword is disabled
 
@johnathon No need to go down to assembly. You can't anyway on x64.
It's all intrinsics.
Auto-vectorization is inherently inferior to a properly done manual job.
At least for a language like C and C++.
 
@Mysticial , i was not awair the the ms compiler even emitted sse instructions befoer autovectorization
 
@johnathon They did, but it was all scalar SSE.
 
6:58 PM
@Mysticial to my understanding, per what i saw in the videos, the compiler only utilized the scaler unit
 
I never say it use the integer SSE. And it would use scalar floating-point SSE when arch:SSE ir arch:SSE2 was enabled.
 
@johnathon correct
 
@Mysticial ok, then how do you go about , on 2010, packing your arrays into the vector unit and processing them there?
 
@johnathon Depends. A lot of things require a complete change in memory layout to get the most from vectorization.
Like switching from array-of-structs to struct-of-arrays.
And then aligning everything at the point of allocation so that you don't have to deal with it during computation.
 
7:02 PM
@Mysticial , i can defiantly see how that would decrease computation time, however, the instructions are still scalar
 
Most attempts to vectorize existing code involve taking an existing loop, unrolling it, and merging unrolled iterations into vectors. That doesn't get very far in a lot of cases - and is only as far as compilers can currently go.
@johnathon No, I'm talking about how I vectorize things.
Compilers can't do it because they don't have the big-picture information do legally do things like changing the data-layout.
 
@Mysticial ok, but what im saying is, no matter what code you give to a compiler that is incapable of emitting vector sse instructions , it's not going to emit vector sse instructions
 
@johnathon In VS2010, it never generated vector SSE.
 
@Mysticial , correct, in vs2012 , it does ;)
 
In VS2012, it does in some cases. i.e. It actually has an auto-vectorizor.
 
Ell
7:08 PM
damn, I didn't do anything today :/
 
What do you think about building a user interface with C# (WPF) and use C++ for calculations? Are there better combination?
 
Ell
why not use c# for calculations too?
 
@user1860848 build your ui with ATL/WTL , and use c++ for your calculations
 
Haskell for everything but UI
 
Ell
having two languages just complicates things (IMHO)
 
7:09 PM
Fuck C++ really
 
Fuck it real hard.
 
Ell
I mean err yeah.
 
Ell
It depends what it's for though, if its uber intense math then maybe the speed of well written c++ is needed
 
@Ell Fortran
 
7:10 PM
@elf if it's really that intense of math , most folks use fortan
 
Ell
or maybe matlab/octave? IDK what I'm talking about xD
 
@johnathon Well, with WTL it's all c++.
 
@johnathon C and C++ are fine if you do it properly.
 
MATLAB, maybe. If you've got a supercomputer to run it on.
 
@johnathon, perhaps most folks in terms of sum CPU time, but not number of people
 
7:11 PM
@user1860848 reference Elf's comment bout mixing languages
 
Fortran is "faster" because the language allows the compiler to do a lot more things.
 
I'd use Haskell, because I prefer to actually have fun writing stuff
And it's pretty optimisable for the performance freaks too
 
C/C++ with all the memory aliasing and stuff blocks a lot of powerful compiler optimizations. Not that you can't get around it to match the performance of Fortran, but it takes some skills.
 
@Mysticial IIRC no aliasing ('restrict' is default)
 
lambda question..
auto myL=[](int(float,double)){ return 3;};
Is there any way, say using decltype, list hack, helpers, to deduce the types int,float,double from myL ?
 
7:13 PM
@johnathon That's mostly out of habit, not necessity though. Yes, there are situations where Fortran's lack of aliasing can help improve code, but it's fairly unusual for it to be more than 10% or so. Even that's mostly compared to fairly naive C++. With a good library that uses expression templates, C++ can often beat even really good Fortran.
 
@JohanLundberg Why, what for.
 
@StackedCrooked It's not just that, but a C/C++ compiler can't decide to "shift" your entire array over to align it.
 
@CatPlusPlus, Im experimenting...
 
I don't want to spend a lot of time developing the Ui (I've experience of wxWidgets).
 
> Haskell function does not terminate, because it is a function
wxWidgets is terrible
 
7:13 PM
IIRC, in Fortran, all functions are not allowed to have side-effects.
 
@JerryCoffin Ty for the insight, just note my comment was so idiotically blatant as to infer "i really am speaking out of my realm of expertise" xD
 
So a Fortran compiler is free to re-order functions. IOW, it can do very high-level optimizations that are generally impossible in C/C++.
 
@johnathon For all of that, it was reasonably accurate.
 
Oh my, pure functions are more optimisable by machines? Well I never
 
Im trying to make a function that would be use like this:
make_my_object([]{ return 2;},[](int,float)->string{ etc .. });
 
7:14 PM
@CatPlusPlus I'm surprised that people keep listing it as an option for serious GUI development.
 
@JohanLundberg What does it do?
And what do you need it for?
 
I won't be surprised if auto-vectorization becomes more successful in a managed language like Java or C#.
 
@user1860848 Is your application going to be dialog based?
 
@johnathon Yes
 
need is a strong word.. I would like to put them in std::functions without having to specify the types again
 
7:16 PM
@user1860848 as most likely, i'd say it's going to be .... Use atl/wtl.. vs has it's own designer, and if you use the wtl wizzard you can hook up the message map to your member functions automaticly.
 
Put what in what and WHY
Designing UI takes more time than implementing it anyway.
 
forget the WHY
 
@user1860848 that is, if it's going to be a windows program, if it's going to be on unix, GTK+, or QT
 
I'm not interested in solutions for non-existent problems, sorry
 
@user1860848 stay away form wxWidgets
 
7:17 PM
;)
 
Ahahah ATL screw ATL
 
No linux. And yes I didn't like wxWidgets.
 
Use GTK+ or Qt period
Platform doesn't matter
 
@CatPlusPlus Said the general to Babbage.
 
@StackedCrooked Who what
 
7:18 PM
The military refused to invest in his computer.
 
I have no idea what you're talking about, and I'm not even drunk yet.
 
@CatPlusPlus GTK+ or QT both have huge dependencies, that has to be taken into consideration. If hes gonna write it just for himself, fine. If hes going to distribute it in anyway ... not so much
 
Dependencies literally don't matter.
 
I'll try WTL.
 
7:19 PM
Qt is self-contained.
You don't need anything but Qt.
 
@CatPlusPlus. My fundamental question is if there is a way to not have to write vector<Blah> twice below
std::function<std::vector<Blah>()> x([](){return std::vector<Blah>(); })
The lambda itself knows its own return type, but I think there's not way to get it exposed.
 
@user1860848 In the end you'll settle on Qt, like everyone.
 
GTK+ is split over several libraries, but outside of that it requires very little.
 
@CatPlusPlus size up for me, a statically linked qt app, vs a statically linked wtl app.
 
Nobody links Qt statically.
 
7:20 PM
@CatPlusPlus js, HUGE difference
 
And even if
Executable size Does Not Matter(TM)
 
@CatPlusPlus ok, now if he's going to give it to say, a classmate, the class mate will need the qt libs
@CatPlusPlus Especially if their both on Windows.
 
Compiling Qt statically, whitout buying it, i think is not legal, right?
 
Ell
Someone ought to write a new gui library. I don't like moc!
 
Qt is like 20MB.
If you include every sublibrary.
 
7:22 PM
@CatPlusPlus yup, upload that to somone at 4k /s someday
@CatPlusPlus you'll care about file size :))
 
@Ell ...Situation: 15 competing standards!
 
If you care about file sizes, move out from that place where civilisation hasn't been around for decades
20MB makes no diffence
2GB makes very little difference
Upload is one time per release thing, even if your uplink manages to be so crappy to not go over 4kB/s.
 
@CatPlusPlus it's a fact of life in certain areas, the USA is considerably behind the rest of the world when it comes to broadband access
 
That sentence is so ridiculously hilarious
 
@CatPlusPlus ok, move to Shiloh tn, and get broad band for me sir :)
@CatPlusPlus besides, if the person your uploading to is only on dial up ( theres a LOT more of those than you can imagine) your still stuck at uploading at 4k a sec
 
7:25 PM
Really, avoiding SO LARGE DEPENDENCIES leads to being that guy who writes everything from scratch every time. Don't be that guy
You don't upload to people on shitty connections directly jesus where do you live honestly
 
@johnathon Considerably behind Europe and Japan. There are vast tracts of land in Siberia and northern Canada (for just a couple obvious examples) that are no better off than the US (and for much the same reason: too lightly populated to justify the expense).
 
@CatPlusPlus um... TN.... where the sunshine gets pumped in
@JerryCoffin i forgot, does anywhere else but europe and japan matter?
 
@johnathon Depends on your market. For some people, definitely yes.
 
China, India, and the United States are a large chunk of population you would be ignoring.
 
@JerryCoffin im not disagreeing, it was a comment more in jest than anything.
 
7:30 PM
@johnathon I kinda figured that, but decided to give a straight answer anyway, just out of perversity.
 
Could someone tell me where I could find a windows7-like calculator with the Programmer mode? The windows one doesn't allow unsigned types so flipping the first bit always results in a negative number. :(
 
If I'm making a library that requires a different library, is it bad practice to include the library in my library? Assuming I make the licenses compatible
 
@JerryCoffin Hey, even in fucking Montreal we don't have decent access for a decent price.
 
@JerryCoffin lest not forget though, on the topic of dependencies, if he's going to be sharing the application, the fear factor of someone else not snazzy with all the libs out there being afraid to even install anything that doesn't come from MS to begin with
 
Average connection speed in USA seems to be 6Mbps.
 
7:33 PM
@Tuntuni Hewlett Packard HP-16C. Oh wait, you wanted one you can get in this decade? Sorry!
 
That really makes me not care about dialup, sorry.
 
@JerryCoffin Lol :( Anything else
 
@CatPlusPlus lots of places still cant even get 3 meg man, no joke.
 
@Tuntuni Unfortunately, it's getting harder: Microsoft has done (IMO) almost the worst possible thing: what they include isn't quite good enough for real use, but still good enough to pretty much kill the market for alternatives.
 
7:36 PM
Dialup is 56kbps
 
@JerryCoffin Eh :/ That sucks indeed.
 
Very old ISDN connections ran at 128. Anything over 512 can download 20MB in no time
Your arguments are invalid
 
@CatPlusPlus even on isdn your upload is 4k/s
 
@JerryCoffin Tbh, the calculator is pretty good for what I'm using it but I hate those random limitations. Why the heck wouldn't I want an unsigned 32-bit integer?
 
@CatPlusPlus unless, like, your rich, and can afford a full duplex connection
 
7:37 PM
So?
 
@Tuntuni You might, however, try an HP-16c emulator.
 
@JerryCoffin I don't need an actual "physical" calculator. A PC one like the one that comes with Windows7 (I need it to have that Programmer mode thing where you can flip bits and do whatever you like with them).
 
@johnathon I don't know why you work for customers that do not trust you.
 
@Tuntuni Most of those are programs for Windows.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes this stuff is for friends, not customers , and family members.. my grandmother of all people is so horridly afraid of viruses she wont use anything less it's got MS's stamp on it
 
7:40 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Do you completely trust everybody who's written software you use? I certainly don't!
 
99% of the people can't tell what dependencies are :psyduck:
I don't know why is this even something to discuss
Being afraid of third party dependencies is utterly fucking moronic
 
@CatPlusPlus True, but im sure the person originally asking the question has no clue how to create an installer package
 
Inventing excuses why doubly so
 
^ Interesting development.
 
You zip files together. There, installer package.
 
7:42 PM
@JerryCoffin No, but I don't use software from sources I distrust.
 
@StackedCrooked Terrible.
 
@CatPlusPlus which is what i usually do. However, not everyone trusts just anything.. just saying
 
I believe I have to reach for my psyduck overflow animation again
 
@CatPlusPlus you must live in a more ahem non redneck place
 
> Silence is golden. Duct tape is silver.
 
7:43 PM
@johnathon Yeah, Internet
 
gtg, have a good weekend folks
 
@johnathon Later. Have some fun.
 
Ell
8:06 PM
I'm gonna write some java things
 
dafuq's wrong with you
I mean, I always thought that you were a sinner with a heart of darkness who intentionally set out to destroy the world
but Java?
 
@CatPlusPlus is psyduck a meme of some sorts?
@DeadMG so is that how you view people? :P
 
well, you know
there's the angels of light and heaven who give happiness, health, and mercy to all
 
Ell
Well I'm going to attempt a bukkit gui
 
and then there's the Damned Demons of Death, Darkness, Destruction, D, and Java.
 
8:12 PM
@Ell I thought of writing a Java thing a while back. Specifically, the installer for my program would include a virus scanner: "Do you want to remove the JDK1.7 virus from your machine?"
 
Ell
heh
 
@JerryCoffin lol
 
should do
 
Don't you need "=" ?
 
8:20 PM
@Mysticial Don't think so.
 
Not in C++11.
 
right
 
@StackedCrooked interesting...
 
your webby pisses me orf
why can't I edit the code?
 
@Mysticial Initialization with () was ambiguous in certain cases, therefore {} was introduced.
@DeadMG Sorry, just copy it and paste in a new sample.
And I shall fix all your inconveniences.
 
8:23 PM
good
chop chop now, there's a good scrubbins
 
@StackedCrooked Right, function definition and most vexing parse.
 
but
 
@Mysticial Yep.
 
I smell GCC bug, because this is certainly not bad or uninitialized at all
 
@StackedCrooked It does. It looks like it still has an obsolescent warning, and you're treating the warning as an error. If you just compile and run, the values are set to 0 though (and least they are for me using MinGW and VS/CTP).
 
8:25 PM
Yeah, VLAN v = VLAN(); compiles without warnings though.
 
@StackedCrooked I suspect that warning is plain broken. The code I posted was even valid C++03
 
@StackedCrooked Yup -- that's enough older that they (apparently) know enough not to warn about it.
 
@DeadMG Doesn't yours require a list of values (in C++03)?
 
@StackedCrooked Nope. It's like an array- anything not initialized is zero.
 
8:27 PM
uh, it might require one, actually.
 
@DeadMG I'd have to check to be sure, but I believe syntactically the {} needs at least one value between the braces (in C++98/03).
 
ah, but that doesn't make the warning go away
so it's still broken
 
^ They just found Unicorns in North Korea
So, that's where they are!
 
They do a lot of science experiments there.
They can use prisoners as testing subjects.
 
8:41 PM
It kinda looks artificial.
 
1
Q: UML representation for C/C++ function pointers

g-makulikWhat would be the best representation of a C/C++ function pointer (fp) in an UML structural diagram? I'm thinking about using an interface element, may be even if 'degenerate' with the constraint of having at most a single operation declared. I found some proposal in this document: C and UML Sy...

^ biggest non-issue of the week?
Why would you model implementation details in UML
 
UML is cargo cult.
 
i think it's done because so much of development (even of cars, whatever) today is founded in purely social issues. top guy knows that UML is ... something. wants UML.
 
@sehe You wouldn't but. But as @Cheersandhth.-Alf said, boss wants UML, you give him UML.
 
8:45 PM
like, pointy hair boss in Dilbert. is completely out of touch with reality. but, has enough something to always come out on top
 
Sad world :)
PS. I do (minimal amounts of) UML too. I know about it. I would never come the point where I'd ask how to model a freaking C++ fptr though...
 
@Cheersandhth.-Alf My guess: top guy sees price tag for Rational Rose and becomes convinced nobody would dare charge that much unless it really was useful (or, maybe just hears talk extolling its virtues and falls for the propaganda).
 
@DeadMG That's the plan! :D
 
@JerryCoffin shivers Ration Rose
 
@sehe Whoa wait I needed to be paged? What happened? D:
 
8:50 PM
@JerryCoffin You sounds like you have some trauma with Rational Rose.
@ThePhD Someone confused you with someone else.
 
Oh.
.... Is my personality that bland? :c
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Not sure about trauma, but definitely a few unpleasant experiences. To be fair, it's about as good of a tool as any I've seen for what it's supposed to do. It's just that (IMO) most of what it's supposed to do is pretty useless. When I used it, we did get some good from it though, using its reverse engineering ability to produce complex-looking diagrams to show how much/hard we were working (and deserved more funding).
Never actually used it for anything like actually designing much of anything though.
 
@DeadMG Now, about fucking the type system in the ass...
I was doing a lot of thinking on it and I think the best way to have this work out is by using a template class on top of a virtual generic function class.
Albeit I have 0 idea if it'll work but that's what I'm going to try!
 

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