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9:00 PM
is the idea to create an EffectF?
 
Ell
well, you combine this with datatypes ala carte
let me find you a talk
 
user1804599
@Ven Fido Dido
 
Interesting, I have just calculated that Andromeda galaxy is only about 14 Milky Way widths away.
It is practically in the same block.
 
Ell
okay I can't remember the coproduct/datatypes a la carte thing
but, this talk speaks about MTL vs Free
 
user1804599
@wilx I have just calculated that Your Mom is only about 14 Milky Way widths fat.
 
9:04 PM
@rightfold :( She is actually about 55 kg.
 
> And in the day-to-day programming I use MTL
eh
I guess we're gonna have to invent Haskell and PS over and over again before we get this right, huh?
 
user1804599
No use free monads
 
Ven
9:21 PM
GNU APL 1.7 Released
nice, finaly
@rightfold OMG
> * an interface from the programming languages Erlang and Elixir
into GNU APL. With this interface one can use APL's vector
capabilities in programs written in Erlang or Elixir. Or from
the Phoenix web framework.
 
Ven
@BartekBanachewicz the new verson of GNU APL has bindings to the BEAM (erlang vm)
 
Ell
sanity check
can fix (the y combinator) be typed?
it can't can it?
 
Ven
9:37 PM
what type system are you using?
Haskell's? no it can't
 
Ell
Idris'
 
Ven
You'd need recursive types
I don't think Idris allows that
apparently there's a way to fake it:
newtype Mu a = Mu (Mu a -> a)
y f = (\h -> h $ Mu h) (\x -> f . (\(Mu g) -> g) x $ x)
(not recursive anymore :p)
 
9:53 PM
@rightfold Slechterik. FTFY
Een kleine schavuit
 
The annoying thing about Haskell is that it makes no sense, so you look up a tutorial and it makes sense at first. But when they show examples, it makes no sense.
 
@Aaron3468 nothing makes sense until you understand it vOv
 
One day perhaps, I'll be able to understand more than the basics like mapping
 
A more salient criticism is that it is difficult to use Haskell for user facing software, in part due to a lack of existing tools. F# is a lot better in that regard.
 
heh, everything is mapping in the end, it just becomes more and more abstract
 
9:59 PM
@sehe I just don't believe it has to take that much time
 
@Mikhail But F# is also hellishly annoying when it comes to just above basic FP concepts
 
I betcha that if tooling were better we could cut the time by half
 
the .NET APIs exposed to F# also follow the regular .NET route, IOW they don't fit particularly well
in the end F# feels really chaotic for me
 
@VermillionAzure what?
 
@sehe The last thing you pinged me with
"You underestimated the time"
 
10:01 PM
That's true Mikhail, and the real reason I haven't learned Haskell beyond the basics. But I see value in it's abstractness. I also see the abyss.
 
@VermillionAzure Yeah. Well. That's experience too. You get better as estimating these things.
 
Yeah, but then it feels like most Haskell is glorified text parsing :-)
 
you haven't really used it too much then
 
Anyhoops, seems to me nobody forces you to use C++.
 
@sehe that. @VermillionAzure
 
10:02 PM
Shh, let's be kind and not compare Haskell to PHP
5
 
@VermillionAzure Why on earth would you not link the reply message ...
 
@sehe My bad
@sehe Well, my point is that the time can be reduced even for people like me with tooling
@sehe It's the only language I know at a sufficiently proficient level for what I want to do
 
@BartekBanachewicz I'm genuinely curious, which Haskell programs don't fit this mold? I know of a few CAD style GUI front end programs in F#, but nothing in Haskell.
 
@VermillionAzure have you thought about learning another one
@Mikhail When you say "programs" do you mean like user-facing ones?
 
10:05 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Yes, I'm considering Rust.
 
Ell
Haskell glorified text processing? :V
I'm not sure what gave you that idea
 
I should probably learn ML as well.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Sure, or maybe some kind of non-trivial processing like graph algorithms, linear algebra, DSP, or image processing.
 
@Mikhail dunno, there's tons of libraries for that on Hackage
I suspect there's gonna be tons of software scattered around there that uses them
 
I would wager there isn't
 
thanks but I'm not into that sort of thing. But you do you
 
We develop software prototypes according to the Pareto principle: After spending only 20 percent of budget, we aim to provide already 80 percent of the software's functionality. We can realize this by constructing a 2080-software-prototype that we can further develop into a full-fledged solution...
What if you want 100% functionality!?
 
it seems to me that you've already formed your conclusions before confronting the data
but then again, I frankly lost interest in discussing haskell use around the world
who cares if X uses it. It's all about whether I can use it for a given task.
 
Sometimes its hard to tell if you can or can't, before trying
 
Welp, let's try this "Valhalla Hills" game.
 
10:11 PM
@Mikhail what is a 2000-software-prototype
btw Faeria is awesoe
 
Ell
@Mikhail show me a piece of software with 100% functionality :p
 
@Mikhail then try vOv. That's way more productive than internet discussions anyway.
 
@Morwenn found this yesterday
 
user1804599
lol
 
user1804599
Pro-Erdogan protesters in Rotterdam:
> "Hey brother, keep calm, what if we get arrested!"
> "Don't worry, this isn't Turkey."
7
 
10:13 PM
lmao
 
lol java.util.PriorityQueue has a peek() and a poll() method - the former returns the top without removing it, and the latter returns the top with removing it
8
 
well at least the purposes aren't reversed
 
also ugh I have Call and MemberCall expressions, but I only have a CallStmt statement
dang it
dirty imperative savages
 
a peek that removed things would be a whole different level of terrible
 
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz look at my beautiful function
 
user1804599
reload :: ∀ a. a -> ComponentDSL State Query Output DocumentM a
reload = (_ <$ (second .= _) =<< lift <<< getDocument =<< use first)
 
@rightfold why do you have holes in it
 
user1804599
10:20 PM
(_ and _) are for sections in PureScript.
 
and why is everything in parens
 
user1804599
Holes are ?foo.
 
@rightfold oh k
 
user1804599
I'm redoing my outliner.
 
user1804599
Much more nicely this time.
 
user1804599
10:21 PM
And with spreadsheet-like evaluated vertices.
 
user1804599
Like =SUM(v1, v2, v3).
 
welp back to work tomorrow
our sprints are 2 weeks long, and I'll be present for 3 hours of the sprint
kek
 
good job Ell
 
Ell
:D
 
@Puppy holy hell if it's not impractically expensive to manufacture that's going to be amazing
 
10:23 PM
yep my thought exactly
although the description did involve nanostructures so it might be
not sure
 
interesting implementation of call statements (although aren't they expressions?)
 
@Puppy yeah, 3 years ago I didn't understand it
 
ah.
 
I added another statement type and called it a CallStmt
 
10:30 PM
it delegates to the expression implementation, right?
 
expression and assignment, yeah
it assumes that the rhs has to be evaluated fully even if the lhs is empty
I... am actually not sure if I'm doing this
 
I think that is true
 
yeah, I think his solution was really elegant
 
the result is just discarded if it's not assigned to anything
 
I complicated the design needlessly
-- call statement is a naked call expression with result ignored
execStmt (AST.CallStmt f ps) cls = do
    _ <- eval (AST.Call f ps) cls
    return EmptyBubble
 
10:32 PM
@BartekBanachewicz It could really, really have used a comment, though.
 
@Puppy oh he dropped the project in the middle (well, beginning actually) of it
he had no chance to ever verify this idea
well, I'll try reverting back and we'll see if the tests break
I just have to change the parser actually
 
well I think that assuming that our belief about the rhs being evaluated even if there's no variable is valid, it's valid.
oh dude don't change the parser
 
Lua 5.1.4  Copyright (C) 1994-2008 Lua.org, PUC-Rio
> a = 1, print("test")
test
yep, it's no Haskell alright
@Puppy why? it was entirely in the parser
 
this is (or should be) an implementation detail of how you implement evaluation, it's got nothing to do with the input AST
which should simply express a call statement in the case where the user wrote a call statement
 
@Puppy exactly, and I polluted the AST with additional statement types that weren't needed at all
 
10:35 PM
they are needed
 
@Puppy mm see that's where I think we're on murky waters
 
they're needed to express the thing that was actually input
the fact that the evaluator can coincidentally re-use the implementation in a neat way is irrelevant
 
@Puppy even if it's entirely functionally equivalent to that assignment?
 
that depends entirely on the function you have in mind.
if you are thinking "Evaluate", then sure.
 
@Puppy oh. Hmm. So you're suggesting the impl of that statement delegate to the impl of assignment?
 
10:36 PM
but perhaps you are thinking "Mechanically transform" instead.
or "debug print"
or any number of other usages of the AST
 
I actually had some troubles with "rewriting AST" this way
 
@BartekBanachewicz ye
 
well then
that means another 180 degree turn
 
I'm gonna see if it works just in case though
 
10:38 PM
the AST should fully express the input tokens in every detail
 
oh
-- this is essentially the same as regular call
-- TODO should it even be a difference in the AST?
eval (AST.BinOp name lhs rhs) cls = eval (AST.Call (AST.Var name) [lhs, rhs]) cls
eval (AST.UnOp name expr) cls = eval (AST.Call (AST.Var name) [expr]) cls
so I guess the answer to that question is "yes" then and this should be left alone?
I think I did cheat in the parser somewhere else before
I wasn't really sure if that was an okay thing to do or not
 
wait, you're implementing x + y as +(x, y)?
 
@Puppy well yes?
wait, that clashes with _G["+"](x,y), doesn't it
 
what if the user writes _G['+'] = function(lol) end?
yep.
 
oh well
I am sure there's more of those
 
10:41 PM
so the general principle, yes, although the specific delegation used is obviously incorrect
 
shouldn't be hard to change, though
@Puppy k
 
recommend write a unit test for that whilst you still remember
even if it's commented out
 
@Puppy Even better. It'd come up when I finally get to do metatables anyway though.
 
yeah that works too
oh, um
I guess you might not need to be so religious about your AST
I mostly gained this perspective after trying to implement some intellisense for Wide
 
I see
so it makes sense from the user-centric analysis perspective
 
10:44 PM
obviously if you don't care about supporting intellisense, mechanical AST transformation, that sort of thing, you might be OK with it being looser
 
but for say, optimisations, it hardly matters?
 
Ell
really you ought to parse a user friendly AST and then desugar into some core one
 
I would forget about optimisations
 
(also the code that parses the call statements as assignments passes all tests I have)
 
if you want to make Lua fast, it's time to break out a JIT
 
10:45 PM
@Puppy not that I'm looking at them, just theoretically
 
and that would basically involve rewriting a whole bunch of shit so
 
@Puppy no, not at all. The long-term goals for this thing are more like rewinding execution and similar stuff
something like Elm's debugger
 
yeah, in that case, definitely forget optimisations
 
I would actually be really happy even if the only thing it achieves was to run simple Lua scripts inside pure Haskell code
 
@Ell Not at all. The user and the machine both want the same thing- they want to know what the fuck the input tokens mean. Throwing away some meaning because it doesn't matter in one specific usage of that meaning is silly.
 
10:47 PM
which is actually pretty close given the set of things I already have implemented
@Ell I thought about that before, but didn't do anything about it yet for the sake of simplicity. Also I suppose pup has some merit there.
 
Ell
@Puppy I disagree
 
one thing I've learned- always design for the generic case, and then specialize for your current case if you can gain substantial savings.
 
Ell
right, this is doing that
you write your evaluator for the core of the language
 
having two ASTs is not savings.
 
I don't think I have any substantial savings to gain yet ;)
 
10:48 PM
it's additional expenses.
 
@BartekBanachewicz I would almost do it the other way around tbh. But I totally get that sometimes you're stuck developing in one language sometimes.
 
@Puppy also that
 
having the parser produce a full-info AST is completely generic and there are not really any interesting savings gained by stripping out information- this delegation can happen just the same inside the evaluator with very little cost
 
@Aaron3468 um, what point would that have? Scripts are typically small, need to embed and sandbox and load quickly and don't need powerful features. Haskell could be embedded, but it's much harder and I see little point in statically typed scripts.
@Ell frankly I have so little metadata in the AST right now that making the Eval ignore it is really trivial
 
@BartekBanachewicz That's what everybody says. Then it turns out they have 140k lines of script. Then 1m lines of script. Then it's JS all over again
 
10:51 PM
Oh well.
 
That's a fair point. When I think of lua apparently I'm imagining all the static/strongly typed variants of it
 
realistically I would say
 
I'm doing really basic Lua. The only bindings that haskell has require going through C and IO and that really sucks
 
just because you need to load code at runtime is no excuse for that code to have lower standards than your statically precompiled code.
 
being able to do pure Lua computations would be really nice
 
10:52 PM
I mean I presume that in this case you're basically doing it for fun and so the "why" doesn't really matter so much
 
@Puppy Not necessarily, if the scripts can't impact each other and even a catastrophic failure in one means compromising just a tiny part of the sytem that can be easily isolated.
e.g. plugins
 
that's what processes are for
 
IPC and sandboxing is much more complex then
also processes have a lot of overhead compared to say Lua VM instances
 
yes
they also have the slight advantage of being able to run code that's not shit.
personally I think that's a bit of a killer feature
 
that depends on the language you're embedding vOv
 
10:54 PM
it's written in Lua -> it's shit by definition
perhaps if you embedded some variant of Lua that was not shit, then that would be better
 
let's keep it at "this is for fun" then
 
works for me
 
soo, okay, I'm spitting out the new statement type, now I have to exec it
I wonder if doing this assignment hack in the eval engine makes sense actually
 
you're internal to the eval engine, you only need to do a thing that has the same observable effects as the spec says the user should be able to observe
 
I get that, it's just...
    ex <- primaryexp
    case ex of
        --Function
        (Call fn params) -> return $ CallStmt fn params
        (MemberCall obj fn params) -> return $ MemberCallStmt obj fn params


execStmt (AST.MemberCallStmt obj f ps) cls = do
    execStmt (AST.Assignment [] [AST.MemberCall obj f ps])
it seems kinda silly having to go back and forth with MemberCallStmt
I mean the only reason for it existing is possible future operations on the AST that would require this kind of notion
 
11:00 PM
probably better to delegate to whatever execStmt (AST.Assignment) calls
 
@Puppy vals <- mapM (\e -> head <$> eval e cls) exprs :P
not very complex
also, again
28 mins ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
-- call statement is a naked call expression with result ignored
execStmt (AST.CallStmt f ps) cls = do
    _ <- eval (AST.Call f ps) cls
    return EmptyBubble
I actually think this is the cleanest way to do it
 
yep
I would support that conclusion
the AST expresses the call statement fully, and then the eval engine just evals the call.
also no comments required
anyway I gotta bugger off as I have work tomorrow, see you all later
 
@VermillionAzure I have no idea whether that's true. If you include improved core language (concepts) then, surely
 
user1804599
krijtfold
 
user1804599
11:06 PM
@BartekBanachewicz map head . eval `flip` cls
 
@rightfold cls should be part of the monad anyway
I'll move it there sooner or later
 
user1804599
cata is great.
 
user1804599
Recursion is bad.
 
Ell
11:21 PM
@rightfold it's great until you need recursion
I'm trying to write an evaluator but I can't because I need the recursion :V
I'm really really stuck :(
(I'm trying to implement this denotation i.imgur.com/2C7f2gK.png)
and it's not possible because catas are guaranteed to terminate
welll
close enough :V
maybe I need Free o.O
 
Ell
I've been sticking purely with Fix so far
 
um
it seems my call routine doesn't take the external closure into account at all
so I can't pass self to it
oh wait it's the first argument
lel
it's funny because when you implement those things you realize why Lua has self its way and not e.g. JS this way
 
11:41 PM
2 minute project of the day; fix a line of Basic code that was creating malformed SQL queries in a program my grandpa uses at work.
The problem was that the original programmer forgot to check if the ORDER BY statement was blank >.<
 
@VermillionAzure I'm quite curious as to how you managed to get that statement into something unusual, complicated, hard to parse or anything remotely warranting your reply.
 
I wonder on average how long deprecated functionalities are maintained ...
building moving, lol
 
@CaptainGiraffe 4 hours is not a usual exam time
even the AP exams are about... 3 hours
5 is INSANE
On a scale of quiz to professional license that's like pushing it for students
 
I mean the longest exam I've had was about 1.5 days but that's for physical stuff
 
11:50 PM
I wonder if I should just open PRs on every branch by default
 
the longest single exam I have taken so far in my entire life is about 3 hours
if IRC
 
" all of your life has been a test" ~ Madonna
 
@Telkitty AP?
@Mikhail "and THIS is the climax, babe!"
 
Had a highschool teacher who photographed a five day cricket match ("test"?), it was apparently so boring he changed careers.
 
user406009
11:55 PM
@VermillionAzure I've taken a 6.25 hour exam (well, 7.5 hours if you count the little breaks between sections)
 
user406009
It's not as bad as it sounds.
 
@Lalaland Professional?
 
user406009
@VermillionAzure MCAT
 
user406009
So, no, not professional.
 
@Lalaland Ah. I guess that's inching towards that
 
user406009
11:57 PM
The only thing that is really painful is timed essays.
 
@VermillionAzure AP?
 
user406009
Multiple choice is easy, no sweat even when you reach 6 hours or so.
 
@Telkitty Advanced Placement exams
@Lalaland Yeah, those really suck. It's still been the most challenging writing that I've had to do in my life.
 

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