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12:01 PM
@fredoverflow I hear them too when they help with digestion.
 
I wanted to get some plums yesterday but then I remembered they help with digestion :(
wtb antiplums
 
so how do you exactly 3d print things with holes
without 2-filament heads
 
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz What kind of holes?
 
user1804599
Like a torus?
 
@rightfold I wonder if I could print those 3 as one element
 
user1804599
12:05 PM
Why not?
 
print bridges you can cut later
to sustain the hole gap
 
@rightfold because the top part would hang in the air
@MartinMatilla yeah that's one option
printing separately allows me to lay them down flat which is much simpler but requires assembly
 
user1804599
Print plugs and holes.
 
or reduce the temperature so it solidifies faster, but its complex
 
@rightfold you mean like perforation?
 
user1804599
12:07 PM
Like a tiewrap.
 
@AldwinCheung nuh huh you think you’ll get me but I’m not clicking this
 
user1804599
12:25 PM
aweesome
 
@Ven Jean.PierrePernaut
 
@IharobAlAsimi Disagree. while(t-->0) clearly states the logic: t goes to 0. I personally would prefer something like while (t --> 0), but this obviously has better readability than while (t-- > 0)alexeykuzmin0 3 mins ago
 
so the Lords pussied out and the Brexit bill is passed
 
rip
 
rip
 
user1804599
12:43 PM
@Puppy What does this mean?
 
our govt officially has gained the power to trigger Article 50
 
user1804599
Yay! :D
 
Ven
RIP @Puppy
 
user1804599
Nice you can use tripple backticks for monospace font in WhatsApp TIL
 
@rightfold cool
 
12:48 PM
@Puppy The real fun starts now.
 
the real problem is that Article 50 cannot be, well, untaken, so if we do not get a deal we like, we are stuck leaving the EU with no deal
so the EU has a big negotiating advantage
 
1:06 PM
@rightfold lol when I cast from Object to generic type, compiler emits checkcast java/lang/Object instruction :) When would that ever fail?
 
user1804599
@fredoverflow It won't, the JVM will optimize it out.
 
@rightfold meh, I've realized it can't be made into one piece anyway
@Puppy sucks to be you
 
sbi
1:25 PM
Hi.
@Puppy Have you already browsed your ancestor for some Scotsman so you could apply for Scottish citizenship?
 
Good morning
 
sbi
looks at his watch
@Shoe Are you in the US or don't you have kids?
 
I don't have kids
AFAIK/ATM
 
sbi
Nice disclaimer. Anyway, that explains why you say Good morning at 2:30pm.
 
SolidWorks license is dissapointingly expensive
 
sbi
1:28 PM
So. What is an elegant way to create a list of all iterators into some container.
 
@sbi in Haskell that'd be scan
IOW a "collecting fold"
 
sbi
You are overlooking something obvious.
 
yeah, I'm trying to hint at what that could be called here
it's between accumulate and transform
 
user1804599
for (auto i = c.begin(); i < c.end(); ++i) {
  d.push_back(i);
}
 
Ven
why
 
1:30 PM
hmm there's partial_sum
waaaait
 
sbi
@rightfold I asked for an elegant way.
 
@sbi what about iota
you'd just need an iterator_iterator ;) nvm
 
sbi
@BartekBanachewicz Yeah, what about it?
 
@sbi dancing tango while writing that ought to do it
though it might be difficult
 
@sbi I think that the idiomatic way would be to not return a list of iterators, but generate one iterator per function call
 
1:32 PM
@sbi well, if you pass an iterator as the value, this should be it?
oh wait no
 
sbi
@BogdanMarginean imagines a 320lb gorilla dancing tango elegantly and fails
 
it bases its end condition on the passed range, not the value
damnit
 
Or maybe an std::initializer_list?
 
IIRC its usage is very limited
 
sbi
1:34 PM
@Shoe Yeah, but this API defines message_handle to be an iterator into a list of messages. And all I can do is implement it.
 
Then return an std::vector?
Or ask the guy that defined the API interface
 
sbi
@BartekBanachewicz I just looked it up. That's a Really Nice Idea™ of yours. However, have I ever mentioned how I am stuck in C++03 land? No? I thought I had. Well, anyway, I am, and std::iota() is C++11. :-/
 
@sbi how about you show the exact signature we're talking about here
3 mins ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
it bases its end condition on the passed range, not the value
this is kinda a cockblock anyway
 
sbi
private:
typedef std::list<message_data> message_list_type;

public:
typedef message_list_type::iterator message_handle_type;
typedef std::vector<message_handle_type> message_handle_list_type;

message_handle_list_type get_messages()`
 
oh yeah so it's missing this one level of indirection there
 
sbi
1:38 PM
Indeed.
 
there aren't really any Standard algorithms to do this- they all operate on *it, not it itself
recommend just write one
 
sbi
@BartekBanachewicz std::iota() would be more convenient, because it assigns ++value, whereas std::generate() assigns generator(), which I need to map to mean ++it, and this is clumsy without lambda functions. Mhmm. Not sure this would be any improvement over the manual loop then.
 
std::vector<std::list<int>> f() {
    std::list<int> l;
    auto li = l.begin();
    std::vector<std::list<md>::iterator> v { l.size() };

    std::generate(v.begin(), v.end(), [&li]() { return li++; });
    return v;
}
@sbi ugu
I'm pretty sure x++ can be solved with bind and next
 
sbi
@BartekBanachewicz std::next()? (since C++11)
 
1:46 PM
@Rerito for one the constructor isn't user defined so aggregate initialization applies, and for the other it is, so aggregate initialization doesn't apply, so C{} is a compilation failure
 
sbi
@BartekBanachewicz It's got one more line than manual loop. :(
 
@sbi O(n^2) for all iterators, though.
 
sbi
@BartekBanachewicz Yeah, I thought of that, too.
The problem is, std::advance() returns ++it, while what I would need is it++. sigh
This all can be solved, but in the end I have more lines than the manual loop has, and way more obscure code.
 
@fredoverflow that talk is rather nice :)
 
sbi
1:50 PM
Well, I could write iota myself and put it into our toolbox. There already are a few other algorithms that weren't available for C++03, but are in later versions of the standard.
 
yeah, I got confused :P
 
@jaggedSpire But when you default it, it is user-defined anyway isn't it?
 
@Rerito not if it's defaulted where you first declare it
 
Oh alright
 
~C++~
 
1:58 PM
@sbi yeah, I tend to agree
 
@sbi I think that's the route I'd take. That reminds me: I should write up a short paper on adding iota_n to the standard. Never quite understood why it wasn't there.
 
@JerryCoffin because the committee is a bunch of chimpanzees and it's sheer luck to get anything into the language
 
Infix functions is something I should use a lot more of in Kotlin
 
@BartekBanachewicz When one looks at the number of things that have been added in the past 6 years, you're the one who starts looking like a chimpanzee.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes they're exceedingly productive chimpanzees
show me the number of things that have been removed in the past 6 years, and we'll talk
 
2:06 PM
Are you kidding me?
 
absolutely not
this just shows the horrendous lack of discipline in the evolution of this language
 
They've deprecated and removed a bunch of things, some of them that have been added in C++11.
 
and yet std::rand is still in the standard, not deprecated
 
@BartekBanachewicz Or the horrendous lack of knowledge you have on this.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I admit I haven't been paying too much attention
 
2:09 PM
@BartekBanachewicz FWIW, there are few things wrong with rand in the standard. "It's redundant" is probably the only one.
 
but given the big points still not done, the minor victories kinda lose their... well, appearance
 
rand isn't a big point.
 
obsolete C APIs in general are
why is printf still in the standard
 
No, they're not, because they achieve one of the goals of C++.
I thought you mentioned discipline earlier.
 
Okay, I lost.
8
I actually forgot being horrendous (keeping C things in) is one of the actively pursued and enforced goals of C++
I can't accuse it of lack of discipline then, can I
Let's leave it at "I don't care about existing code and systems, I care about better languages for the sake of new code" then
 
sbi
2:13 PM
@JerryCoffin What would iota_n() write to? A single output iterator? (You'd have my vote for that.)
 
@sbi generate_n is anologous (so yes)
 
@Puppy So where you moving to?
5
 
the _n variants write or produce to an output iterator together with an upper bound
 
star the 4th one, not the 1st one in this block dammit
sigh
 
Xeo
@Puppy We're hiring!
 
2:16 PM
@Puppy Wait, they dropped the issue of existing EU residents?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes They gave up all their amendments.
 
Isn't that likely to make the EU even less amenable to negotiating?
 
I believe that the existing EU residents will have their rights guaranteed when we receive a reciprocal guarantee from the EU.
but since the EU won't make that guarantee before negotiating starts, we can't make ours right now either
@R.MartinhoFernandes I do not see how the amendments asking for a referendum or Parliamentary approval on a final deal could have been implemented, since there is no mechanism for such approval under Article 50 as far as I am aware- once you trigger it, you're out.
 
What of NI? Is anything decided?
 
don't believe anybody knows what the fuck to do about that
 
2:20 PM
lol
 
I think that they will have no choice but to close the border
just another example of how Brexiteers did not really consider what it is they were asking for
although I also believe that the EU firmly shares the blame for this situation, if memory serves they were basically unwilling to negotiate things that were politically pretty bad here, e.g. free movement
 
@Puppy But NI citizens can get ROI citizenship, which makes them EU citizens.
@Puppy How so?
 
well a simple example would be a cap on the number of EU migrants, even if a large one
or even just a recognition that completely unlimited movement could in theory exhaust the capacity for the receiver to receive new people
 
You mean to blame for Brexit itself, or for NI's peculiar situation?
 
Brexit
NI just is a peculiar situation ;p
 
2:24 PM
Ah. I was really confused there.
 
it's pretty obvious that both parties were responsible for Brexit
 
I don't believe that migration is a big contributor but it's undeniable that quite a bit of our infrastructure is failing, especially health, and limiting migration might have helped a little.
 
That being said, the UK residents did commit a major fuckup with the referendum
 
the housing market is totally fucked and limiting movement of people might have helped significantly with that
 
sbi
@Puppy Actually, limiting immigration is exactly what will bring the NHS down now.
 
2:27 PM
I just hope that NI won't become a complete fuck-up.
 
sbi
@Puppy You keep listening problems caused by your government as "caused by immigration".
 
ehhhh
it's true that our government did not build anywhere near enough new houses
but it's also true that we would not need so many without five million EU migrants
 
sbi
@R.MartinhoFernandes ISTR having seen this morning that Sinn Fein wants an independance referendum. So, basically, the fuckup has already began.
 
IDGI why the government needs to be responsible for housing
 
@sbi Personally I feel like the aging population is probably the biggest factor, and migrating new healthcare workers is essential for us, but people like to blame migrants anyway.
 
2:28 PM
shouldn't that follow basic supply and demand
 
sbi
@Puppy And how do these five millions relate to the number of UK emigrants?
@Puppy Just like you did.
 
@sbi No, I just said that I don't think it's a big contributor and that limiting migration might have helped "a little".
 
sbi
@BartekBanachewicz Because housing is one of the fundamental human rights. Just like health, no violence, etc. – all of which need to be provided by the society, because the free market does not provide them. And societies are organized into states, with governments running the daily business.
 
@BartekBanachewicz The problem is land- there's not really any more available land to build on.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Tell that to the homeless.
 
2:30 PM
if you want to build new houses, you need to take land from existing uses, and local people will get out the pitchforks.
 
sbi
@Puppy No, it wouldn't. Look, immigrant never were any of your problems, except for that they were used as scapegoats. (I know that because it's the same here.)
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes But the homeless probably couldn't afford the costs of living anyway, right? Like, bills.
 
They're all waiting for those houses they can afford to pay from their beggar's income.
 
user1804599
 
Yeah, @R.MartinhoFernandes is stealing german jobs!
 
sbi
2:31 PM
@Puppy That's, of course, nonsense.
 
@sbi Well there are some housings on the free market. So it might not provide enough of them, but then raising prices should stem creation of more, cheaper ventures, no?
 
yes, I am certain that you are much more informed than me about the situation with regards to available land in the UK.
 
sbi
@BartekBanachewicz Yeah. Just kill them. And once we're at it, why not kill the poor ones, too? (Like TrumpCare does?) And what about Muslims? Jews?
 
@sbi Wow, you really went on a slide on this one.
 
@BartekBanachewicz There's nowhere to put them.
 
2:32 PM
@Rerito In my field here in Berlin it seems like there's more demand than supply, so I'm actually creating German jobs.
 
@sbi Well, the facilities are already there in Poland IIRC
 
@Rerito we couldn't translate the instruction manuals from German
 
sbi
@BartekBanachewicz We are, literally, talking about a society where that failed. I am living in another one. And you keep repeating this neoliberal trickle-down nonsense that failed.
@Rerito swallows
 
@sbi Yeah, I'm wondering why that failed, not denying it or jumping to the conclusion that govt has to fix it in a certain way.
 
sbi
@R.MartinhoFernandes No, you just help to bring down the price of good programmers. :)
 
2:34 PM
@sbi I just wanted to dibs on the first godwin point here
 
@BartekBanachewicz because people are too gready
 
@BartekBanachewicz The principal reason why it failed is because local people won't support converting land used for existing things into new housing developments.
 
sbi
@Rerito I think you got some MPoints there.
 
I mean it's not that expensive to build ultra cheap housing, but that tends to create more problems than it solves
 
so our housing developers can't really build new houses unless the government agrees to overrule them
 
2:35 PM
@sbi MPoints what are those?
madaration?
 
@Puppy I guess there are places where land is cheaper, no?
 
sbi
@BartekBanachewicz That fails for the same reason capitalism fails on all society issues: feeding the poor, protecting the helpless, not contaminating the environment...
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yeah, likely where it's shit to build on. There's a reason it's cheap.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Not in the places where people actually want to live.
 
sbi
@Rerito MPoints are to Points what MBytes are to Bytes.
 
2:36 PM
@Puppy Oh so now we're actually asking them where do they want to live if they're homeless?
 
who said anything about homeless?
 
@Puppy robot and ape I guess
 
sbi
@BartekBanachewicz How can people pull themselves out of the problem of not being able to afford housing if they cannot work? And the distance to jobs is the main factor for housing costs in Western countries nowadays.
 
if you have a place to stay but want to buy your own then it's kinda natural that some locations are gonna be more expensive
 
sbi
@BartekBanachewicz Actually I think it was you who brought them up.
 
2:38 PM
@sbi Yup. In particular, you'd often pass something like back_inserter(container).
 
unfortunately, the housing market being fucked is far from only a problem for the homeless
 
sbi
@JerryCoffin Yeah, that's what I thought.
 
since basically nobody in my generation can afford to buy a house, partly because we're all spending 50% of our incomes on rent
 
@Puppy This seems to be the norm everywhere
 
2:39 PM
I figure we gonna do the land distribution on Mars in a different way huh
 
@Puppy This as well seems to be the norm
 
@BartekBanachewicz People usually want to live close to where they can get a job, and where they can stay close to their families or friends. The former is particularly important because knowing to fish isn't enough; you're going to need a fishing rod.
 
It's even better in france where I don't qualify for "social housing" and get the privilege to spend twice as much money for half the surface
 
@BartekBanachewicz give it to the big corporations to parcel out instead of to the guy with the biggest army?
 
@ratchetfreak give it to the corporations with the biggest army
 
2:40 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Because C compatibility remains important for quite a few people.
 
@JerryCoffin I suppose "fuck those people" won't fly huh
Capitalism++
 
sbi
@BartekBanachewicz It will fly right into your face, I suppose.
 
grr, if your generation won't fix the C problem, someone else will have to
 
We all know what C stands for: cuntcer
 
plenty of C++ alternatives around
 
2:42 PM
You realize that providing migration paths from C helps getting rid of C, right?
 
I was talking to my colleagues at work and they tried to convince me that C89 written nowadays is oh so different to C89 written in 89
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes What proportion of your income do you spend on rent?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes the best migration path from C is interop and rewrite, not recompiling parts of it
 
@Puppy Proportion of before or after tax?
 
after
 
2:43 PM
One third.
 
@Puppy ~6%
 
Though now I split that evenly with my fiancée, so it's one sixth.
 
sbi
@BartekBanachewicz TTBOMK, Walter Bright is of my generation.
 
@BartekBanachewicz "Best" here meaning more expensive. Gotcha.
 
@Puppy 1/3 as well and I live in a shithole
 
2:45 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes ¬_¬ grumble grumble
 
With shitty neighbors
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes "expensive" always asserts a certain amortization period
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes ...and specifically, enough more expensive that the vast majority of the time, it's just not going to happen at all.
 
sbi
@BartekBanachewicz That explains your neoliberal attitude. It's always those who never had any problems who do not understand that there are people who, not necessarily due to their own fault, have it much harder.
 
@sbi oh give me a break will ya
 
sbi
2:46 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Nope.
 
@sbi it used to be ~30% until I actually became paid more or less what I'm worth
 
sbi
@R.MartinhoFernandes And that's without kids to care for.
 
@BartekBanachewicz So you got a 400% pay raise?
 
@Rerito in about three years, yeah. But that includes going full time
I suppose it slows down from now on
 
2:48 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Generally, yes.
 
sbi
@BartekBanachewicz As I said: Let's just euthanize everybody who is worth less than you are. Problem solved.
 
but sure, hate me for working my ass off and call me a neoliberal all day
 
sbi
(Well, you then will have to shine your shoes yourself, and cut your own hair, etc., but who cares about that when they can ridicule people doing less well than they do?)
 
@sbi yeah, you said that.
 
@BartekBanachewicz I think most of us here work their ass off. You're not special there.
 
2:49 PM
I wasn't claiming I'm special
 
sbi
Don't you think those supermarket cashiers are working their asses off, too?
 
The students not included.
 
I specifically objected to being called special
 
sbi
@BartekBanachewicz I do not call you names, I just put the appropriate name tag on the ideas you're spreading here.
 
2:50 PM
50%
 
Ven
@BartekBanachewicz but you're a snowflek :[
 
@Rerito I actually have a decent place.
 
I dunno about Poland but here to get a raise I have to quit and find a job elsewhere
 
@sbi I still think that's hugely personal, but sure
 
sbi
@R.MartinhoFernandes Is that still the one I visited you at?
 
2:51 PM
@Puppy just pure rent?
 
yep.
 
@Puppy dude
 
BTW ask me how much % of my income would it be to buy a new car
compared to Germany or UK
 
@BartekBanachewicz Nice. Doing a quick calculation, I'd have to be paid about $670,000/year for my current rent to be only 6% of my gross income (and around a million/year for it to be 6% of net income).
 
I live in a pretty crappy place too
 
sbi
2:52 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Think what you will. What you say here is neo-liberal nonsense, and if you say so in public, you risk being called a neo-liberal. If you do not like that, you might want to re-think your attitude.
@Puppy That being Bristol? :)
 
heh
I like living in Bristol but the actual flat itself is pretty meagre
 
@sbi No, that being the UK. :-)
 
Ven
> That explains your neoliberal attitude.
 
@JerryCoffin It was slightly unfair, since it's not technically rent but just costs of living, but it wouldn't be that much more if I was actually renting. Less developed countries tend to lean that way
 
@BartekBanachewicz how many people would rather a car than a place for their family to live ¬_¬
 
Ven
2:53 PM
laffo
 
sbi
@JerryCoffin Oh, you live in a rented place? ISTR pix from a garden that seemed to be attached to a house.
@JerryCoffin :-/
 
@thecoshman Everyone migrating from Poland to the UK I suppose
Get that: eastern countries are cheaper to live in than the western ones
 
@sbi In Colorado I was, but I've been in San Diego for a while, and haven't bought anything here.
 
Ven
I see everyone started a drama to remove my 16* from the starboard. Nicely done guise.
4
 
as someone in our profession, the more to the east you are, the easier it is to buy a flat and the harder it is to buy a car, and vice versa to the west
 
sbi
2:54 PM
@BartekBanachewicz They also tend to pay less. And people seem to be less wealthy, overall. So?
@JerryCoffin Ah, I missed that.
 
@sbi "wealthy" in global or local terms?
 
sbi
@BartekBanachewicz In terms of what they can afford.
 
@sbi OTOH, what I'm renting here is actually a house, not a flat/apartment.
 
@sbi well, again, I can probably afford more food than you but less cars or macbooks.
Which one of us is wealthier?
 
@BartekBanachewicz you
 
2:56 PM
@Ven ...and it's out
 
@BartekBanachewicz Essentially impossible to compare (though people will try anyway).
 
Ven
@milleniumbug I expected that.
 
You are in a position to complain about not having luxuries, you are not struggling to find basics like a place to live
 
(for the people who are reading the transcript n years in the future: the 16 star message was that)
 
@Ven It'll probably be back later, if that's any comfort. Two-stars and such will drop off a lot faster.
 
sbi
2:57 PM
@BartekBanachewicz I didn't have enough money to buy a car in >15 years. A Mac? I have a rotten 10 year old PC, which doesn't even boot. I never owned anything but PCs I made myself from 3rd-hand parts.
 
@thecoshman and yet at the same time stuff like new clothes is way harder for me to get
 
Ven
@JerryCoffin Thanks Jerry.
 
@JerryCoffin iirc once a starred message has dropped off, it's gone...
 
@thecoshman Nope. I've seen them reappear.
 
@sbi well, by "afford" I meant "what I earn would buy". I understand that your general situation is vastly more complex and challenging than mine.
 
2:59 PM
@JerryCoffin hold the phone
 
sbi
@JerryCoffin Well, my money to spend on books, cinema, theater, eating out, etc. is rather limited, to say the least. I doubt he is as limited financially as I am.
 
not having kids is a huge change everywhere you live
 
yeah, kids are expensive in about every way you can mean it
 
so you'd need to compare to one of my colleagues with a family and 3 kids
 

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