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2:00 PM
@khajvah Wow, "the worst thing". Talk about the truth.
 
@LucDanton I don't care about which style is used. I do care about a community of language users enforcing their opinion.
 
@paul23 By some metric, yes, you are. :) I am also dyslexic and dysortographic. At least I was in childhood. It takes effort but if you keep checking yourself you will improve.
 
@LucDanton I don't see how different styles in C++ made it any worse.
 
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz okay I'm confused now :L
 
why ye hafta bring c++ into it
 
2:00 PM
It's usually inconsistency that kills readability.
 
and for some reasons a particular thing mentioned stood out to point out who the murderer was in the novel
 
@LucDanton lol, cause that's what we all have in common: the love/hate relationship with C++.
 
@rubenvb Please, no.
 
@rubenvb It's usually readability that kills inconsistency.
 
@rubenvb I wonder nowadays though: why use C++
 
2:01 PM
@rubenvb Consistency is a good thing
 
@rubenvb With too many commas missing and too many capital letters missing, you can sometimes get pretty ambiguous.
 
Well I know why to use
 
C++ people huff when you don't do snake_case too
 
@chmod711telkitty Nice. :)
 
But I wish I could just "insert" C++ code in other languages like you can insert assembler into C++
 
2:02 PM
Except Puppy
 
What the fuck for
 
@rubenvb Is this a pattern you have noticed amongst Rust programmers?
 
@wilx if it didn't happen to me I would not believe this kind of thing could happen either ...
 
Writting full programs in C++ is a nightmare to say the least.
I've given up on that after fighting with Qt on the interface for months.
 
Writing anything in C++ is a nightmare (so just dont)
 
2:03 PM
@CatPlusPlus s/in C++//
 
@CatPlusPlus lel
 
@BartekBanachewicz I'm ok with it. And right now, even though I have to move by Sunday, I really really really really don't want to bother about it until whatever happens on Friday night.
 
@paul23 So your experience says nothing about C++ and everything about Qt.
 
@CatPlusPlus It is godly fro well defined/enclosed algorithms. Where you have a clean structure of input <-> output <-> interface
 
@BartekBanachewicz Beh
 
2:04 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes behind every non-accomplished goal is fear. And it is not the truth that moderate use of alcohol will cause addiction (note that I am not taking into account exceptional cases)
 
user3790646
well if you find gui designer hard then...
 
@Griwes Lol no - but that's my experience for making a GUI. Liek I said: I really wish I could just put C++ code in Java.
 
@khajvah You take the bicycle.
 
user3790646
you better not mess with winapi :L
 
@paul23 laffo
 
2:05 PM
@LucDanton His edit message seems to indicate as much.
 
I'm moving this weekend too
 
@CatPlusPlus acronym = ?
 
@paul23 And Qt is quite streamlined, euh, usable, at that.
 
@rubenvb The edit message indicates that you have noticed Rust programmers enforcing style?
 
user3790646
I find Qt easier than the Java GUI API, signals and slots are convenient.
 
2:06 PM
@rubenvb This is me talking from 2012, where I had millions of problem trying to combine boost signals to Qt. And to combine std::unique_ptr into Qt widgets.
 
@CatPlusPlus to a castle?
are you a millionaire from your game yet
 
@LucDanton No, his edit message indicates to me there seems to be at least 1 rust programmer seems to think it's ok to enforce his opinion on people.
 
alright
 
@paul23 The answer is simple: don't!
 
Oh no I can't make my own shitty style
However will I live
 
2:08 PM
Except the Boost.signals. That may not be possible to get rid of those completely.
 
You should conform to community's guidelines whether anyone's ~~~enforcing~~~ (lol) it or not
 
@paul23 GUI = suckage, in every language
@paul23 also lol
 
@Griwes WPF is pretty nice to work with
 
@rubenvb Well: I had a (non) gui version completelly neatly working. And then I wished to add a GUI. (IE: I have a map of unique pointers whose data I wished to display in a list).
 
the "bindings" idea and the functional trends are the good direction imho
 
2:09 PM
@paul23 If you had the ownership working, link everything to Qt with raw pointers?
 
@paul23 lel, map of pointers
because we need double indirection
for reasons
 
C++ doesn't have a consistent style:
there's Camel Case: QVector
 
@Griwes for being able to construct references? stop being an ass.
 
C++ does, for the most part - standard_case.
 
there's snake_case: std::unique_ptr
 
2:11 PM
@milleniumbug Standard C++ has a naming convention. But no one ever tried to push it to everyone.
 
map iterators invalidate on element addition no?
 
@rubenvb Yeh, but then on Qt forums I never got a reply how it considers ownership... That's the last thing I remember.
 
and "I write like a retard"-case: strxfrm
 
Ell
I write in standard c++ style
ie sanic_case_gotta_go_fast
 
I use Bjarne case
 
2:11 PM
@paul23 Then again, blame Qt, not C++.
 
@Griwes To "have" a NULL reference (that's why it's also a unique_ptr, it was in the past a reference)
 
@milleniumbug we can rule that out pretty much
 
@paul23 boost::optional
Stop considering null pointers to be a valid state of that thing :F
 
okey nvm
 
Ven
well met
 
2:12 PM
@paul23 Raw pointers are raw pointers. Owning a raw pointer is like owning a number.
 
actually map iterators don't invalidate on insertion
 
@Griwes After what, 30 years?, I think you can kind of start blaming the language for being to harsh to create easy GUI :P.
 
@paul23 wat
 
it's not just the language, it's the tooling
and libraries
 
@paul23 Languages are irrelevant here.
 
2:12 PM
@BartekBanachewicz No
 
@rubenvb Well I remember (sorry again long time ago) that some of the Qt structures back then would delete the pointee when desctructed.
 
Also god this discussion is so dumb
MOST UNNEEDED
 
@CatPlusPlus it's about languages and about GUIs
how could it not be dumb?
 
@paul23 I doubt you read that correctly. The only thing that handles ownership in Qt is the QObject hierarchy.
 
Xeo
QWOPject
 
2:15 PM
And their containers are copy on write IIRC.
 
^ that was an old problem I ran into
 
@CatPlusPlus I knew you'd like that one
 
Slightly different though
 
@AndyProwl I'm going to an art exhibition tomorrow. Not modern art.
 
Ell
Are edits to google docs anonymous?
 
2:17 PM
@paul23 What's the problem? That you might leak a GUI object before it's added to a parent object?
 
Yes no maybe
 
I don't know
 
Google is bad at anonymising shit
 
@rubenvb In that case yes
 
you ruined it
 
2:18 PM
> C++ sucks when it comes to exceptions. C++ compilers suck when it comes to exceptions even more.
ahahahahah
hgahahhahahahaa
hhfasjhhfdhahafdsahfadhafdsafda
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Ooops. That's what I call a misclick.
 
they are hilarious
 
....
 
ITT Griwes in C++ fanboy mode again
 
dont say mean thing s about my programing language
 
2:19 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes with lady?
 
@Ell dude, really.
 
@paul23 And it would likely leak when you get bad_alloc thrown. Lemme see. Unless you anticipate this happening a significant number of times during the course of your application this is unlikely to be a real issue. Usually when alloc fails, you have far worse problems
 
@BartekBanachewicz No, it's just that exceptions are one of the parts of C++ that are actually done circa correctly.
 
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz I guess not? :P
 
2:19 PM
@paul23 In that case you can always ensure you create the object at the parenting point, no?
 
Ell
:'(
 
@CatPlusPlus It is not your PL
 
I'm glad about that
 
layout->addWidget(new QWidget);
 
@Ell Even if they were anonymous that was way too obvious
 
2:20 PM
@Griwes throw "up";
 
user3010322
@Griwes throw 1 is IMHO a bit of a problem.
 
Hence "circa".
 
inb4 "> circa"
 
@Griwes exceptions are meh in the first place. Refer to Robot vs Jefffrey in the Haskell room about that.
 
@sehe slooow
 
2:20 PM
@sehe inl8
 
@sehe Well problem was that the way Qt went about it was so against RAII (at least to my inexperienced eyes), yet C++11 seemed to stress RAII...
 
@BartekBanachewicz linky?
:D
 
It's like being in modern rome..
 
Yeah, I'm lazy.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Oh god, you make it sound like a lawsuit.
 
2:21 PM
Instead of doing as the romans do you have to do like the italians do
 
What does C++11 have to do with Qt design decisions that were set in stone years before it was even a thing
 
user3010322
@R.MartinhoFernandes With Justice of the Peace B. Bracket Presiding over the trial.
 
@Griwes I think I didn't bookmark it :/
 
@paul23 Well, sure. It's the nature of GUI frameworks that the components created must outlive the function that created them, so, no stack components.
 
@paul23 it's not against RAII at all, but it does implicit ownership semantics all around. This is the confusing part. And yes, since they don't "believe in" exceptions, they largely ignore them
 
2:22 PM
@Griwes It was about impure exceptions in pure code, though.
 
@Ted Jeffrey plonked me in that discussion
 
@MartinJames Actually you can create them on stack just fine
 
@AndyProwl :D
 
My coughing is getting worse, maybe I will choke & die tonight
 
Ell
m8 exceptions are gr8
 
2:22 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Okay, that is also a fair point.
 
But yeah, the answer would probably be "yeah, don't do that".
 
so is rubby yes we know.
 
@CatPlusPlus ..yes, and then you have to move/copy them into parent containers:(
 
Chat moving too fast lol
 
2:23 PM
@MartinJames well. just let main create the UI. Wait...
 
Parent containers should be subclasses
 
Ell
you can transform exceptions to Either anyway, right?
 
@Ell You can catch and do anything you want with it.
 
@Ell Either is closed. Exceptions in most languages are open.
 
Ell
Oh I thought either was open
my bad
 
2:24 PM
@paul23 you'll get used to it.
@Ell no, it's data Either a b = Left a | Right b
that's the, like, "canon" definition
 
> The precedence of operators is not directly specified, but it can be derived from the syntax.
lolwat
 
Ell
haskell doesn't have subtyping does it?
 
Xeo
@BartekBanachewicz Either a (Either b (Either c (Either d))) :D
 
Y'all ever find yourself with some data you have in a single struct that you access with multiple threads? And if you want to use it without synchronization you wanna label them in a certain way?

struct Thing {
uint x_sync; // thread 0
uint x_async; // thread 1
}

Then you copy async --> sync during a sync call where thread 0 or thread 1 are blocked
 
@Xeo uehhh.
 
2:25 PM
data Exceptional a = Result a | forall b. YouFuckedUp b
 
(No idea whether that's actually valid. :D)
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes In case it was your idea, good choice ;)
 
@Ell By and large, no. In one instance, though, if you tilt your head and narrow your eyesā€¦
 
@Griwes the scary part is that it is. But you can't really do much with YouFuckedUp.
it's a. What can you do with object of type a?
 
2:26 PM
@BartekBanachewicz :D
 
Anyway point being: different libraries (Qt, boost, apache xml, opencv) promote such different styles that I got kind of fed up with C++ and went to python. Oh did I mention installing dependencies for opencv already?
 
@Jefffrey Consider additive-expr: multiplicative-expr + multiplicative-expr, multiplicative-expr: parens-expr * parens-expr as a grammar definition.
 
@Griwes data Exceptional a = Result a | forall b. Show b => YouFuckedUp b gets you somewhere though
 
I now use C++ only for parts I know I will write the code myself and don't need other libraries (yet need speed)
 
@Ell No, but it can have polymorphic data types with typeclasses and forall.
 
2:27 PM
If you spec expression evaluation in terms of that, the precedence is encoded in the way the grammar productions are structured.
 
@BartekBanachewicz okay
 
@Griwes oh also swap the order. "left" should be less than "right".
 
@Griwes Harmful nonsense.
 
That's actually... almost like a C++ exception.
 
user3790646
already spent 4 days trying to fix that bug, damnn
 
2:27 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Oh I see.
 
@Prismatic Errm.
 
@Prismatic No, don't do that
 
@LucDanton It solved a real problem from @Bartek, he said he owes me a 6 pack for that!
 
No, I never find myself with such a shitty model.
 
@CatPlusPlus any suggestions for an alternative
 
2:28 PM
Uh no how the fuck am I supposed to know what you're trying to accomplish
 
@Griwes right, I do! You're surely getting it when I'll be able to. Or I'll ship it, dunno.
 
@Griwes wow, is he going to build your abs for you?
2
 
@Griwes A glowing reference.
 
@BartekBanachewicz lol. We'll surely meet one day, so... :P
 
2:31 PM
6 pack of what
 
of love
 
cool
 
had to qualify the exception type because it couldn't understand the type of a doesn't matter here
in practice it wouldn't be a problem
because the a would appear somewhere in the context anyway so
 
I should write rustsnake maybe
 
Xeo
2:34 PM
@BartekBanachewicz I don't know if I find it annoying or consistent that print "hi" outputs "hi"
 
heh
remove the show in the last line
it's most unneeded there
 
@Xeo Possibly itā€™s the names of print vs putStrLn that you have a grievance with.
 
@Xeo Er, it does not.
 
Xeo
@LucDanton Rather the show part for String.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I misremembered - it does include quotes though.
 
It's print $ show "hi" that prints that.
(lol print . show)
 
2:36 PM
or putStrLn . show . show $ "hi"
 
@Xeo Then the fact that itā€™s named Show and not Repr or Debug possibly? :D
 
Xeo
I'm not sure
As I said, I don't know if I'm annoyed at that or not
 
How much do you want a type-class for printing text?
 
Xeo
on one hand, it's.. kinda unexpected? OTOH, it's consistent.
 
it's given to you for free basically
 
2:38 PM
> Apparently, SourceForge's mysterious "sf-editor1" has also claimed ownership of a number of other accounts for open source and other software projects.
 
Lol I find myself now trying to model a human breaking for a light in a "simple" negative feedback system
 
@EtiennedeMartel sf put out a blog post explaining the whole thing
 
@EtiennedeMartel lol what a bunch o' dicks.
"GIMP-Win project wasnā€™t hijacked, just abandoned" & only then hijacked.
 
@Prismatic It's bullshit, that's what it is.
 
> We welcome further discussion about how SourceForge can best serve the GIMP-Win author.
I guess "fuck off" would be the best way to do that.
 
2:44 PM
They probably thought that bribing devs to make them put their software in adware bundles wasn't efficient enough, so they now do it by force.
 
Its unsettling that they'd do that. What if github goes shady in the future and does that
I guess its unlikely because they have a clear way of making money in private repos
 
@Prismatic There will then be a newer source control site that grows big.
 
@Prismatic SF is already dead.
What we're seeing is the final jet of pus from its corpse.
 
@EtiennedeMartel I find some useful older programs still on it though
I wonder why it started dieing lol
 
2:47 PM
Because better things appeared and they didn't change to counter that.
It's like asking "how did MySpace die?"
 
Not keeping up with control scheme changes? And hence losing the large users? (But then again, still quite a few people use SVN)
 
@paul23 Because their UX has always been crappy, and GitHub came along.
 
@EtiennedeMartel That's cause the popularity wanes off when it's no longer shiny and new.
 
@paul23 No, that's because Facebook appeared as a better alternative to MySpace, and MySpace didn't do a damn thing.
 
SF is slow, ugly and painful and github is not
 
2:49 PM
Exactly.
SF has also been slow, ugly, and painful.
 
@Prismatic notepad++ seems to be SF still I hitnk?
 
GitHub is, for all intents and purposes, a better SF. Why would you host your project on SF when you can go to GitHub?
 
It was designed to squeeze as much ad revenue as possible.
 
@Prismatic They would need to change their terms of use first.
 
No one would care. Everyone clicks I AGREE no matter what terms change in licenses these days
How many times has Facebook and Google changed their EULAs?
 
2:50 PM
Then why do you care?
 
@Prismatic Not legally
 
Not the first time SF did it.
Remember FileZilla
 
@paul23 What do you mean by "not legally"? Do you mean that the changes were challenged and court and deemed illegal?
@milleniumbug They've always been a mean machine for ad revenue.
 
@milleniumbug Yeah, but FileZilla was done with the devs' agreement, IIRC.
 
2:53 PM
Basically, free but chock-full of ads lost to free with paid extra features.
GitHub is profitable, SourceForge is struggling to stay alive at all costs.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well they are at the least bit "dubious" - Changes to an eula can't really that easily be made. (First of all in the netherlands there is legallity at all in a (written) EULA). But you can't change an eula for existing customers here, if they disagree they have the right to keep using the old system without any changes at infinitum.
Question is only: Are you a customer even if you haven't paid? (But aren't you paying by sharing your personal information, which a court in the past verified as having value).
 
They made the classic mistake of forgetting one crucial point: your revenue is your users. If you piss them off with unethical practices, you're gonna get fucked.
@paul23 Yes.
 
@paul23 Was that challenged in court? Most EULAs have provisos for changes.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Now that I looked it up, it seems so - official site links to downloader at FileZilla with a warning "may include bundled offers"
 
@milleniumbug FileZilla's devs are weak.
 
2:55 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes THat provision was challenged yes
The biggest question is: "are you a paying customer"
 
I don't see how money has anything to do with it.
 
@paul23 What does that has to do with anything?
 
You can enter agreements without money being involved.
 
Well if you're being "given" something for free the company has no obligation (you never went under a contract). If you aren't "given" something you have an unwritten contract.
If I go to you and fix your house you can demand from me to come also tomorrow to fix the things I accidentally broke, however if you paid me (in any form doesn't have to be money) I have to do this.
 
@paul23 I would assume that 'ad infinitum' would mean 'for the outstanding duration that was initially agreed upon' regarding the service. For a service that can be stopped at any time without prejudice, then Iā€™m not sure what there is to do.
Can a company not decline to do business with a would-be consumer?
 
2:59 PM
@paul23 You can sign a contract without spending money.
 
@LucDanton The "stopped at any time" was considered bad: either it had to be specified in reasonable time that the contract would end.
 

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