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3:00 PM
Anyone who writes a C interface should be fired immediate.
 
@BartekBanachewicz lol
 
seriously humanity, stop using C fucking finally. Sincerelly, Bartek.
 
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz but but but stable abi
 
i'm interested into learning more about this (I have zero C experience), do you know any good resources? google isn't very helpful... C + callbacks + context
 
@Ell that's irrelevant. I write code, not binaries.
 
3:01 PM
@gnzlbg Try to keep it that way.
 
@Ell You can write stable C++ ABIs.
 
Ell
@R.MartinhoFernandes but it's much easier with C isn't it?
 
@MartinJames I'm trying, but I just need an OpenGL window + Keyboard + Mouse, and haven't found any "working" C++ libraries for that yet..
 
@gnzlbg I wrote a single-file library that does that. Not tested on animals.
 
@gnzlbg You can look for ‘closures vs objects’.
 
3:03 PM
@LucDanton Thanks i'll try that.
 
Ell
@gnzlbg oglplus wraps opengl in c++ style stuff. and sfml or barteks lib does the not-actually-opengl stuff
 
@BartekBanachewicz where can i find it? I wouldn't mind to have two libraries (one for the window, and another for keyboard + mouse).
 
it has only WinAPI backend implemented right now
but it's braindead simple so you'll be able to hack in whatever you might need.
It's been tailored for use at shitty environments at my university by shitty people at my university and lazy me
 
I would vote for Bartek Lib - free them all!
 
expect dragons and shitty code.
 
3:05 PM
@Ell Not sure. For me it's just wrapping things either way. It's only the wrapping that differs.
 
@Ell i'll try it out.
@BartekBanachewicz i'll give it a look but i need Macos support
 
Xeo
Hm, fuck. Robot, what kinda sleeve size did you use for Zombie Fluxx?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Kinda like sending a bomb at Christmas instead of for a birthday?
 
@Xeo I don't have that.
There's a huge list on BGG.
 
3:06 PM
@BartekBanachewicz have you looked at glm? it's a wonderful thing to add (header only)
 
Xeo
Oh wait, that was @thecoshman, right?
 
My scroll bar just unlocked a new achievement: scrolled 10km in one shot
 
@ÓlafurWaage I suppose users can add that themselves.
 
reading bartek's function
 
yea of course :)
 
this class has one benefit: you don't have to have shitty gimmicks of WndProc
 
@Xeo BGG says Fluxx uses Standard US size.
FFG green.
 
following, you can use lambdas as key/mouse callbacks.
 
The inevitable core-eating 'if (PeekMessage(&msg, NULL, 0, 0, PM_REMOVE))'
 
morning guys
 
3:09 PM
hm guys does someone here have some experience with compiling boost? I mean, my only question is how long it will take before b2 --link=static --threading=multi --runtime-link=static --build-type=complete --prefix=C:\Programs\Boost\installed finishes? :)
 
oglplus is huge -.-
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Ah, I always forget that one
 
@Gizmo ages
 
I'm more of an evening guy.
 
@gnzlbg ages as in hours, days or months? ;o
 
3:09 PM
All of the above.
 
@Gizmo in ever
 
so, this is how my career ends then, thanks boost XD
 
Xeo
@Gizmo Get a cryogenic freezer for the next 25 years, and then it might be done.
 
I mistyped method as moethod in my commit message. Probably been watching too much anime.
 
@Gizmo years
 
3:10 PM
is there any thread on meta discussing of the possibility of notifying a user when he's the subject of a "meta trial" for something he did? It seems fair to be at least notified and say his thoughts when somebody is accusing him of something he did.
 
@MarcoA. Meta trials shouldn't exist :<
 
ok years.. where can I download prebuilt libraries? XD
 
@Gizmo I would start worrying around the one hour mark with an okay desktop machine. Could take a while on a laptop.
 
that'll be faster
 
Xeo
@StackedCrooked Now you need to add a moe ascii comment above, with the commit message "make the moe-thod truly moe"
 
3:10 PM
@Gizmo depends on your system, but that it compiles doesn't mean that it finished without errors, and ... well, installing boost from source can be fun.
 
@LucDanton oh that doesn't sound that bad :D
 
@Xeo Hm .. I'll consider that.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes uh, I see those all the times.. e.g. "[This user] did xxxx, is this allowed? Can we ban him?"
 
@Gizmo inb4 you come back crying after 2 hours because boost eventually failed to compile
 
3:11 PM
hm, shit, apparently I forgot to provide non-default context creator
meh, C++.
hi scott.
 
@Jefffrey well a few years ago I did compile boost, took 6 hours, but it worked
 
Good luck m8
 
so i think i'm back to writing a wrapper around glfw... wish me fun!
 
Thanks, will probably need it :P
 
Best wishes for a speedy recovery.
 
3:13 PM
at least i'm now getting the mt-sgd libraries, which I was missing in 1.55
don't even know what sgd stands for but probably static debug
 
@ScottW pretty okay
@gnzlbg sec
ah okay nevermind
 
@BartekBanachewicz i checked out your library, but it seems that writing it for macos would be like reimplementing everything in it. From the multiplatforms libs i've seen, glfw is the smallest one that seems to work.
 
I looked in the Haskell wrapper code around GLFW I wrote, but I think it won't help you
 
@gnzlbg It will suffer from the same crippling defect wrt callbacks.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes yep
 
3:15 PM
@gnzlbg yep, but at least you get the skeleton ready
I agree that if you're reimplementing you might want to simply rewrite it
 
Did someone watch "Twin peaks"?
It's an old movie
From 1992
 
Ok. Just making sure you understood that it's a fundamental failure and can't be fixed ab extra.
 
Honestly no, POSIX lays claim to all identifiers suffixed with _t, see GNU - Reserved Names. So POSIX considers itself free to, now or at any point in the future, declare a new type with that suffix in the global namespace. POSIX isn't C++ so a new type won't be nested in std it will be global. If that type conflicts with a type in an existing codebase, then that codebase is considered to be (and have always been) in the wrong for not playing by the rules. — Eoin Jun 26 at 14:05
Wait wat. Is that true? We can't use identifiers ending in _t in user code?
 
@BartekBanachewicz i'll try to keep it as simple as possible, it might work on windows too (who knows).
@R.MartinhoFernandes any opengl wrapper will suffer all of opengl drawbacks :(
 
@gnzlbg it's not an opengl drawback
it's a retarded API
 
3:17 PM
AMD's releasing a new API, which gives direct (like?) access to the GPU
 
@sehe POSIX bullshit
 
@sehe Kind of.
 
@Gizmo you mean Mantle, which was released dunno years ago?
 
@BartekBanachewicz well...
@LucDanton TIL
 
@BartekBanachewicz yeah that probably XD
 
3:18 PM
well what about it then
 
anyway haven't seen any games with it yet
 
@Xeo huh?
 
so it's probably a flop
 
@sehe You shouldn't be defining identifiers in the global namespace anyway
 
@Gizmo no.
@Gizmo you're bad at googling then.
 
3:18 PM
@Jefffrey It's not about the global namespace, though
 
@Xeo oh, I don't use no sleeves :P
 
@BartekBanachewicz i know, but i will be calling opengl myself, I just need a window, and max input (i'll put that in a different wrapper). If creating the window fails (or the gl context), you are screwed anyways... fprintf an error and terminate.
 
Xeo
@thecoshman remind me to never talk to you again
8
 
ugh I hate the graphics side of C++
 
@Xeo sorry, can't here you over all the games I'm... not playing :(
 
3:19 PM
@gnzlbg throw an exception.
 
completely another world
 
@Gizmo C++ doesn't have graphics.
 
@Xeo actually, I do have them for yo-gi-oh cards.
 
@BartekBanachewicz i could do that too. The callback can do anything :D
 
@thecoshman Did someone mention playing games?
 
3:20 PM
 
@sehe Why not?
 
@BartekBanachewicz Let me rephrase then, all drawing API's are.. just hell.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes more my lack of :'(
 
I hope the next opengl version will fix everything
 
@Xeo Don't forget: Never talk to the pirate again
 
Xeo
3:20 PM
alright, home timu
 
> because systemd betrays the UNIX philosophy.
 
@Xeo Do you really need sleeves for Fluxx? It's not like they're Magic cards.
 
Aahah lmao
 
@xeo how come you got Zombie and not some other variant?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well, I didn't spot that limitation on the linked page
 
3:20 PM
@sehe It mentions the C language.
 
@Gizmo a) use high-level APIs b) don't use C++
@Gizmo it won't.
 
c) use C++
 
Well, POSIX does, not that page.
 
Xeo
@thecoshman I played Pirate Fluxx at the SPIEL '14, which had 2 creeper cards, and that was boring. I remembered the Zombie version having a lot more, so I got that
@TheForestAndTheTrees Yes I do
I don't want the cards to degrade
 
meh I just let the drawing stuff to other People, I enjoy doing all the other stuff :P
 
3:21 PM
i've heard the soundtrack should be good,
the nicolas jaar essential mix starts with an interview to angelo badalamenti
https://www.google.de/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCMQtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fvimeo.com%2F18413925&ei=SihFVP2SBYuaygP-iIDwDg&usg=AFQjCNEElB-d0JR_Ek1V1dwLCk2ntzDxYw&sig2=fsTcwBtAc_EqhIDJk0QTKA&bvm=bv.77648437,d.bGQ
 
@Xeo I actually thought Pirate was a great version of the game. Sure it's not got a load of creepers, but it has the surprise cards which, trust me, can really change a game.
 
Xeo
@thecoshman Hm, true, that was nice
but the creepers are nice for stopping you from completing your goal
 
@ScottW Really?
 
Xeo
Maybe I should get the pirate edition too and just take the surprise cards
 
@Xeo ... or helping you get it
 
3:22 PM
@Griwes right.
 
@ScottW Ok, you have convinced me to watch it
 
@Xeo I think you can mix the two sets together for a crazy version if you like
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes it make sense that C++ by definition inherits the restrictions from C
 
@ScottW You said you are fan
 
Why can't people stop using shitty solutions
 
3:23 PM
IIRC Monthy Python flux was ok, but you need to be all super memory for quotes
 
@thecoshman pirates siding with creepers. Somehow appropriate
 
Just stop
don't use C, don't use old C++, kick out C legacy
 
There's the guy from 24 as well
 
@sehe It doesn't. The C++ standard only inherits things from C explicitly, never implicitly.
 
3:24 PM
why is everyone dumb and making my life miserable whenever I try to do anything with the software or the hardware
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes If it inherits the headers, doesn't that inherit those restrictions... Mmm.
 
@sehe C headers don't have anything not in the global namespace.
 
@ScottW Ok, give me your credit card number and secret code
 
C++ inherits the contents of the headers.
 
any way, time for home :D
 
3:25 PM
Should we tell'em here:
450
A: What are the rules about using an underscore in a C++ identifier?

Loki AstariThe rules (which did not change in C++11): Reserved in any scope, including for use as implementation macros: identifiers beginning with an underscore and an uppercase letter identifiers containing adjacent underscores (or "double underscore") Reserved in the global namespaces: identifiers b...

@R.MartinhoFernandes touché
 
Oh. I discussed this with Loki before.
 
> The rule about any identifier ending with '_t' surprised me a lot. I think that is a POSIX standard (not sure yet) looking for clarification and official chapter and verse. This is from the GNU libtool manual, listing reserved names.
 
He likes to read the standard abstract and assume everything in C is in C++, even though it makes no sense (1: why the fuck would they rehash so much then? 2: it's full of conflicts, then!)
 
@ScottW Thanks you'll be hearing from me shortly never
 
@sehe no, POSIX is not C++.
 
3:27 PM
Also note that, since it's clearly stated that they're reserved for type names, there is no problem with macros.
 
wtf, glfw uses callbacks everywhere, like, for everything
 
(E prefixes are a lot worse)
 
@BartekBanachewicz kindly stay in your bubble. I like to use POSIX in my programs, so, objection overruled
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah, I noticed that too. The original comment thread where I bumped into this lacks that nuance, though. It's settled then :)
 
@sehe I don't see the on the question
 
@BartekBanachewicz ...
In your bubble. And close the blinds :)
 
3:28 PM
His bubble is correct in this regard.
 
seriously, using "some os specification"-specific functionality is not governed by C++ standard
 
cool, apparently I'm __WRONG__
 
"Here, the C++ standard forbids these. You might want to avoid these as well" BURN THE WITCH!
 
Ell
meh.
Am I crazy? I can do a using to alias to another using can't I?
 
3:30 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Also avoid names starting with "Bartek" because I said so.
 
@Ell Assuming you’re referring to alias decls, yes.
 
Ell
yeah
 
if we were to put suggestions with accordance to every possible style guide on earth, the answers would be 10 pages long
I don't see why POSIX should be special here.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Feel free to add that. If you read the answer, you will notice that the additional restrictions are both in their own section and qualified, so make sure you do the same for Bartek's rules.
 
When it comes to alias templates though, you can’t do template<typename Type> using pointer = Type*; using pointer2 = pointer;.
 
Ell
3:32 PM
I'm doing template <size_t I> using Arg = typename function_traits<FT>::arg<I>; where function_traits is gist.github.com/elliotpotts/66190b178d6fa1a32246
 
@Griwes (The answer is also correct in that it mentions this. Also, questioning the question's tags does not make discussing rules irrelevant. It derails the topic.)
@BartekBanachewicz ^
@BartekBanachewicz Will do!
 
No POSIX tag -> no POSIX exists from the question's perspective. This is sanity. What happened to sanity?
 
It also serves as an example that shows you might have to deal with additional restrictions imposed from outside the language.
 
which is pretty damn obvious.
 
@Griwes We weren't discussing a broken question. We were discussing real life facts. Somewhere along the way I linked a related question. Gee
 
3:33 PM
but w/e, I don't care about it that much
 
@BartekBanachewicz Which is why you can stop "contributing"
 
sure, after you get off your "I use posix, therefore master race" horse
 
@BartekBanachewicz WTF man.
What about your "there's no POSIX tag therefore taboo" horse?
 
my horse doesn't focus on posix in particular
 
@Ell Sorry, was elsewhere. That looks like you mean typename function_traits<FT>::template arg<I>;.
 
3:35 PM
no "x" tag, we're talking about C++ standard. period.
 
Yes, that's still a ridiculous position.
 
As long as you are discussing C++, not POSIX, POSIX doesn't exist. POSIX is a silly standard not relevant to the language vOv
 
You'll notice the answer quotes the C++ standard.
 
You’ve mentioned you were forgetting typenames recently. Missing some templates is the other half of the affair.
 
I mean it's okay to show an example.
 
Ell
3:36 PM
@LucDanton yeah that did it, thanks!
 
@Griwes Can you take your blind hatred elsewhere?
 
Ell
@LucDanton Yeah, I've never used that syntax before
 
Blind hatred?
It's not blind; POSIX is just inferior.
 
But I feel that people, after reading such answer, think they should write code according to both POSIX and C++ standard.
and I feel that's wrong.
 
I find the list of POSIX reserved names important because it is a widely used standard and because it is likely to cause conflicts with seemingly ok code.
@BartekBanachewicz Reword it.
 
3:37 PM
Look what I've found
A piece of history
 
@Griwes Thank you for your contributions.
 
@Ell Compare std::tuple_size_v<Tup> < 3 and make_me_an_array::with_size<3>.
Aw shit that doesn’t work. How to fix…
 
Mar 23 '13 at 9:19, by Scott W
Twin Peaks
 
Yes, kick me right when I am typing an explanation for why POSIX is inferior.
Talk about blind hatred.
 
3:39 PM
I don’t remember how the proposed Standard variable templates are supposed to look like.
 
@Griwes ow
 
@Griwes Is that hatred directed towards blind people?
 
@Cicada Can't you not see that?
 
I haven't gotten banned in over a month
 
3:41 PM
No, seriously. When a standard decides to allow things that should absolutely be functions be macros instead, which leads to huge clusterfuckery, because its prime language is just bad at inlining things, the standard is broken beyond repair.
 
SCOTTY
how u doin
 
@Jefffrey I miss the guy
 
@Griwes It's broken beyond repair all over the place, and therefore we should pretend it doesn't exist because is a great help.
 
pornguy as I fancied to call him
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes We should pretend it doesn't exist so it can die one day.
 
3:43 PM
> The film can be viewed as both prologue and epilogue to the television series Twin Peaks (1990–91), created by Lynch and Mark Frost.
wait wat
 
people still pretend PHP is a viable language for web development
 
Fact: because it is.
 
this movie must be fucking you good if you forget what a prologue and epilogue is
 
@Cicada so is COBOL on a wheelchair
 
@BartekBanachewicz What do you mean with "viable" btw? You might not have noticed, but there is empirical evidence that it is viable.
@BartekBanachewicz Where's the evidence of that?
 
3:44 PM
PHP is perfectly viable
 
I suppose someone wrote a web app in cobol that work
 
@Jefffrey Everyone star it
 
I don't know any website developed in Cobol, but would honestly like to know one.
 
Not my message ffs
3
 
I also suppose that someone wrote a php app that works
 
3:45 PM
lol people
 
That was quick.
 
@BartekBanachewicz They're everywhere...
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes you're mistaking them with PHP apps giving an illusion of working
like wordpress
or facebook (but they're migrating)
 
@BartekBanachewicz it's the same thing
nothing really works
 
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz facebook? :P
 
3:46 PM
facebook isn't really in php anymore
 
@Cicada Powers: abused.
 
Ell
> http://chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/19515191#19515191

Guys I think you got the wrong idea.
 
@Ell no shit, sherlock
 
PHP with an advanced compiler doesn't count as a PHP.
 
3:46 PM
@EtiennedeMartel You owe me 6 stars. Please unstar the other btw, be consistent in your madness at least.
 
Ell
@EtiennedeMartel okay that's it. I'm starting a mutiny
 
Who the hell removed the stars.
 
I did.
Muhahahahaha
 
Why.
 
@EtiennedeMartel you're a dickhead
8
 
3:47 PM
Jelly
 
It makes absolutely no sense.
 
Begging for stars? Not on my watch.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Anyway, I have to say that your attitude doesn't seem to have changed much after your break :(
 
@EtiennedeMartel you ruined the joke
@R.MartinhoFernandes Wanna hear a story?
 
SOMEONE unstar my other message please it doesn't make sense
2
 
3:48 PM
@BartekBanachewicz What joke?
 
@Cicada too late
 
Our joke.
God.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes During my break, people at my work decided we needed a web app for something. Despite my suggestions, they wrote it in PHP, because they knew it and assured me it's going to be a small prototype thing. A few weeks later, it's facing our clients and collapsing under load, bugs, lack of security, means of debugging, monitoring and everything.
 
Etienne de Thickhead
 
I witnessed and am witnessing this with my eyes.
 
3:49 PM
@Cicada Don't worry though, I know how to fix this
 
finally boost compiled
so it's not years or days or months :P
 
Bad programmers make bad software.
 
@Jefffrey lol this is getting out of hand also welcome back Jefffrey
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Good programmers with bad tools under tight constraints also make bad software.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Hehehe tight constraints
 
3:50 PM
@EtiennedeMartel go back to that post
 
Boy is everyone angry in here.
@R.MartinhoFernandes How's it going buddy?
 
@Gizmo Sorry to break it to you but a year have passed since I last saw you here
 
Insert adage about bad workmen and tools.
 
It was 2014 back then
 
:P
2 gb of libraries and all my projects compile now :D
 
3:51 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Seriously, I am all ears when it comes to learning new things. I love learning and utilizing niche software solutions. But PHP is just FUBAR. It's useless. Alternatives outsmart it in every aspect.
Incidentally, I started the embedded C project recently and conclusions are similar.
 
What do you mean, "learning"?
 
like "oh, this redis thing is apparently a database. Let's see how it works and give it a try"
 
Is that what they did?
 
@BartekBanachewicz PHP gets shit done.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes No, they knew PHP already, to some degree.
 
3:53 PM
@EtiennedeMartel Litterally.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Yes. You do work on it, and you create shit. You have a shit done.
 
I'm pretty sure the folks in the PHP room know how to debug PHP.
 
I'm pretty sure folks in the C++ room know how to write portable software.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Using PHP does not necessarily mean you're going to write shit in it.
 
Jul 2 '12 at 22:35, by Cicada
bugs.php.net Why the subdomain?
 
3:54 PM
@EtiennedeMartel It means exactly that most of the time.
You want "to get shit done"
 
PHP's problem is that it's the antithesis of the pit of success. Writing in it requires discipline.
 
PHP: Pit Hof Phailure
 
precisely.
 
That being said, I totally understand the business decisions that would lead to adopting PHP.
Because after all, writing software is mostly a political problem.
 
yep, having crappy software on the market fast
 
3:56 PM
And sure, you can wank all day about how PHP sucks from a technical standpoint, but in that period PHP devs are too busy making stuff people actually use.
 
...and hate.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Right, too busy.
 
inb4 "what they don't use they don't hate"
 
But then again you've never been known for your pragmatism.
 
@BartekBanachewicz That's really orthogonal.
 
3:56 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Yes because, unless you haven't understood anything yet, real software is about making money, not beautiful abstractions through elegant code or whatever.
 
Visual C++ is not written in PHP.
 
@Cicada fuck that bullshit.
 
Software is a tool. A tool is there to solve problems.
 
@BartekBanachewicz I'm not disagreeing with you, but that's how the system works. Can't go against it.
 
if that's what motivates you to write code then get the hell out of my eyesight
 
3:57 PM
Software is a religion
 
If my software solves my problem adequately, I don't give a shit what it's written in.
 
@EtiennedeMartel That's wrong (not as in "not true" but as in "not right"). No other thing ever labelled "engineering" suffers from that.
 
WTF???
http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/274882/why-is-there-not-a-rule-that-says-any-criticism-should-begin-with-saying-someth
 
If writing it in PHP means it gets in my hands quicker, and thus solves my problem quicker, then so be it.
 
You either write bad software or your write less bad software
 
3:58 PM
You're all a bunch of Cat Plus Pluses today
 
No I'm fine
 
@BartekBanachewicz You are butte
 
@BartekBanachewicz I ought to flag that:)
 
if I ever feel forced to write PHP I'll end my career and go work at a coffee shop
or wherever far from a computer.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Shine on, you crazy diamond.
 
3:59 PM
no seriously
I won't whore myself like that.
 
@BartekBanachewicz ..where the ordering and stock-control will be PHP.
 

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