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12:38 AM
they didn't really concede much. for example, Jon still thinks "documentation" is the right name for it
 
 
12 hours later…
12:40 PM
I am starting to think that the tiddlyverse is our python3: a somewhat incompatible graft-on, declared to be "The Future" and "Single Best Way" used in somewhat incompatible ways a by (possibly growing) subset of users.
 
1:15 PM
@DirkEddelbuettel more like Perl and TMTOWTDI
Python is ""There should be one — and preferably only one — obvious way to do it."
I don;t think python 3 violates that, but I've not looked too hard into it.
 
1:40 PM
@Spacedman Actually the exact opposite as the Pope has been presented every issue as having "one correct way to do it" and that mistake in central to the tiddlyverse.
Programming is engineering. You evaluate and balance trade-offs. There is never "just one way".
 
@DirkEddelbuettel that's just within the tiddlyverse though?
making a single "idiomatic" way to do something within the twiddlyverse is fine, but only if you ignore the rest of the cosmos
@DirkEddelbuettel agree, but finding commonality of tasks and patterns helps much, even if it leads to sub-optimal aspects
The wider fail is having to go "Do I do this with base R, data tables, tiddlyverse or sqldf" at time=0 of a project with no idea of what's best at that point.
And its going from idiom to dialect very quickly....
 
2:30 PM
@Thomas Disagree; lattice is there because out of the box there was a desire to make available a system that would run code in books etc that used Trellis graphics in S-Plus. mgcv is there because "how do I fit a GAM in R" was a huge FAQ back in the day. There is no need for any pkgs to be recommended these days.
 
2:43 PM
Personally, my struggle with tidyverse tools is that I find they eliminate a lot of friction while I'm actually writing code, but almost too much, to the point where if I'm not careful I end up with code with pipe-chains that are too long and difficult to modify and adapt later on.
Whereas when I use base tools I often end up having to write the code more slowly and think harder as I go, which is it's own frustration, but the code I end up with tends to be easier to revisit down the road.
 
3:35 PM
@GavinSimpson I think the "there should be no non-recommended packages" option is also reasonable.
sorry, that should say "no recommended packages".
 
@Thomas (was wondering what you meant.) Disagree; if R started from scratch, today, there'd be no need for these current pkgs to be recommended. But we aren't starting from scratch today. What we have today is the legacy of a quite different landscape of a decade and a half ago or more. That can't be ignored.
 
@GavinSimpson I think we agree more or less. Most recommended packages are not, however, integral to the functionality of the base R packages, so I'm not sure we still need many of them to have that "recommended" status. If we do have recommended packages, then there should be some higher-level investment in deciding what continues to merit that recommendation status (and when it should be given and/or revoked).
 
3:53 PM
@Thomas @GavinSimpson Now we have to list explicit imports in the DESCRIPTION file, you could imagine lattice (and other recommended packages) getting dropped from R in a few years time and treated as normal R packages.
 
@Thomas The only consideration that counts it that of R Core and what they are prepared to maintain and who they want to bring into their inner sanctum. The rest is just theoretical...
And on the ggplot2 point, it's not just ggplot2 that would have to be brought in. It's the 7 or so non base, non-recommended pkgs that would have to be pulled in, and all their dependencies.
@csgillespie I could, but I don't see the advantage to R Core to change the out of the box experience at this point. I also don't see who is being disadvantaged with the status quo? It hardly seems like ggplot2 is having a hard time finding users...
 
@GavinSimpson Yes, I realized from the earlier discussion that's ggplot2's dependencies are the problem there. (But note that RCore as a unit does not maintain recommended packages, though RCore members often do as individuals.)
 
@Thomas There is an expectation that they will. Here's a question for you; who maintains nlme?
 
@GavinSimpson One benefit would be to trim down the R code base
 
@csgillespie R Core have shipped it so they're responsible for keeping the source available. There is a trade-off between reducing the footprint of how R ships (mostly) and the gnashing of teeth because the default setup changed
Given who maintains many of these packages, I doubt there is any desire on their part to set off any major change to the out-of-box experience. Not yet anyway.
 
4:20 PM
@joran that date q that just got deleted is weird.. why does the month become 05 if format string has %M (I know it should be %m, but its always 05 regardless of the input string).
 
The byte compiler option in the DESCRIPTION file doesn't seem to get validated particularly well: unique(tools::CRAN_package_db()$ByteCompile) Should I email R-dev mailing list?
 
@Spacedman Yeah, I was puzzling over it and then they up and deleted it.
 
All: as.Date("2012-01-12","%Y-%M-%d") returns a month of 05 for all the date strings I've tried..
as.Date("2012-01-02","%Y-%M-%M") returns: "2012-05-23". What are those %M's doing?
 
Aha!
"For strptime the input string need not specify the date completely: it is assumed that unspecified seconds, minutes or hours are zero, and an unspecified year, month or day is the current one."
I bet that's what's happening.
So if we tried this experiment again in a few weeks, we'd always get "06".
 
4:41 PM
@joran is that in ?strptime?
oh yeah in the Note:
wonder how many times that slipup (%M for %m) happened and wasn't noticed because it was only tested with the current month :)
 
 
3 hours later…
8:00 PM
@Spacedman And if specifying a format string is too hard, there is always the lovely anytime package doing it for you :)
 
8:27 PM
@DirkEddelbuettel tired of lubridate already? :-P
 
@JorisMeys You imply I had at some point used that package. Why would I? It's from the tiddlyverse, and I stay pretty far from mosy of those apart from light use of the now-stabler ggplot2..
 
@DirkEddelbuettel I know it's mostly youngsters using it, but the :-P sequence could be interpreted as a tongue in cheek ;-) (that's a wink).
Not that I want to say you're old ofcourse, I wouldn't dare...
 
9:03 PM
@JorisMeys That's too new school for me. I do smiley and frowney and wink only. ;-)
 
9:22 PM
@JorisMeys Isn't :-P a tiddlyverse piping operator?
@hrbrmstr @geospacedman They’re more like a spear wielding mob 😜
He's talking about people who use base R here....
 
 
1 hour later…
10:47 PM
vague, but give him a few minutes to edit before slamming:
0
Q: How to use bquote with format?

SteveM49How can I learn how to use bquote with format? Everything I've seen has been a one off solution to a specific problem. I would like to annotate a graph with a descriptive title using greek letters, values from my source code, and formats that include the percent sign.

 

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