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12:44 AM
Heh, just got an excuse for a late submission. #1 I didn't notice the date was on a Friday. #2 Mom has cancer. #3 My grandma just died. #4 I've the flu.
 
1:06 AM
Do they get a day for each? We typically let students "defer" a grade and redo next semester if something serious happens.
@CaptainGiraffe So you do teaching right? Have you ever had students request extra time because they have ADHD? Its kinda weird request, because if they are on meds, I assume the ADHD is already treated?
 
@CaptainGiraffe So what's your plan btw?
 
@Ven Overwatch \o/
 
@VermillionAzure Grade it like any other submission. I just don't need to grade it in a timely fashion.
@Mikhail Yes I've had 2 cases where they get to do exams, instead of a five hour exam, they get to do a 4x2 hour exam. Split up in sessions. Over two days usually.
 
@Mysticial Reminder.
 
Ell
@CaptainGiraffe Students do 5 hour exams?
 
1:17 AM
@CaptainGiraffe My gut reaction is that given them extra time is wrong, and in the last few cases, the students with extra time (40% longer) tremendously benefited. In both cases other students asked me why that guy was given extra time. I think the real messed up thing is that statistically, in the room there were more than 1 student with ADHD but only one of them choose to get the extremely unfair advantage. How do we resist?
 
Ell
Wow
I thought 3 hour exams were bad enough
 
@Ell That is the normal time for a "big" written exam.
 
I've never had an exam that was longer than 3 hours
 
Ell
I guess I don't do written exams
 
user1804599
@Ell Yo
 
user1804599
1:18 AM
How's FP going
 
@Ell I tend to write exams that are completable in about one to two hours. The extra time is for angst and checking your answers.
 
Ell
@rightfold It's going okay, I've been stuck on something for months though
That is, writing some recursion scheme which does a single step of computation over a fixed point of a pattern functor
 
@Mikhail There is no reason to oppose this. There are plenty of mechanisms outside of my grading that keeps this fair.
 
Ell
But, I've made progress with type indexed pattern functors which is good
I have an assignment due for easter to write a few natural semantics for a language While and it's extension Proc and implement it in Haskell
 
@CaptainGiraffe What about the argument that if they have medically "treated" ADHD (which in the USA are trivial to obtain, and often obtained just to improve grades) there should be no difference?
 
Ell
1:22 AM
@rightfold how's logic programming?
Or, whatever you're currently into :)
@Mikhail I'm from the UK but I know people here that just bought modafinil or others online
And took them before exams to make themselves more productive when preparing
 
My roommate and a lot of friends pulled that shit. In the US its easier, you just take a test, and if you don't do well you get the meds. So guess what you do if you want the meds?
 
@Mikhail Still. I can grade them on what is submitted to me. I grade them on a personal level. I make them talk to me. I make sure they understand why you can't sneak up on a std::unique_ptr.
@Mikhail About 30% if my grading is done head to head.
 
@CaptainGiraffe Interesting, that's not a thing at all here.
 
@CaptainGiraffe This would be called "capricious grading", and isn't a viable strategy for a multiple choice tests or large sections. Your students are luck to have you :-)
 
At least it wasnt in my Uni and afaik I dont know anyone who does this.
 
user1804599
1:28 AM
@Ell Not.
 
user1804599
I'm learning ATS.
 
@Borgleader I do realise I'm the outlier here. I do however have a close to 100% getting my Bruces and Sheilas into employment.
 
Bruces and Sheilas!?
 
Sadly they start out with about my current salary =)
Anders and Anna's if you will...
 
Oh, generic names referring to male and female students
 
1:29 AM
Not you make you feel bad, but our school has almost total employment for CS grads :-) (but I don't do CS)
 
I hadnt heard that variation ebfore.
 
Sheilas sounds very 80's
 
Ell
@rightfold that's the imperative style language for formalised programs right?
 
@sehe You were punk from the age of five=)
 
I was never told this vital information about myself
 
Ell
1:31 AM
@CaptainGiraffe head to head?
 
@Ell Yes, we sit down and they need to explain stuff to me.
 
Ell
Ohh I see
Orals, vivas
I had two vivas last year
 
@Ell This is a lot less complicated. I want them to use proper language.
It is just as much an examination as it is a teaching opportunity.
 
user1804599
@Ell I have no clue what it is.
 
user1804599
Also redoing my outliner app.
 
user1804599
1:35 AM
No more database crap. Using Firebase instead, and storing the whole document at once.
 
2:20 AM
what idiot named it Food Wars: Shokugeki no Soma and not Rurouni Kitchen
/cc @Mysticial @Xeo @StackedCrooked
 
@Mysticial Bwahahahahahahaha
 
low quality troll
 
go on @mik show those lesser trolls the art of trollig
 
2:36 AM
I'm more of a sociopath
 
what makes you think you are a sociopath instead of a psychopath?
 
I don't really care which one you choose
 
@Borgleader holy hell
 
that's genius
 
2:43 AM
My computer while I'm coding in C++: i.imgur.com/XBrx7IR.png
 
I was expecting task manager with all of the 16 cores with 100% usage
 
Or my PC with 128 cores and only one with 100% usage!
 
My motherboard doesn't support those kinds of processors; it's too old.
 
@Mikhail What part of me do I have to sell for 128 cores?
 
@littlepootis Its not too hard, you could them for around $4k. Compare that to my other expenses like bovine embryos or hard disk space. Also I got them for free, because Intel was nice.
tldr; get a job
 
3:12 AM
@Mikhail But a job leads to work. Work leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.
 
Suffering leads to death.
@Mikhail nice
 
3:33 AM
@CaptainGiraffe lol what
Hey just a question
Does anybody here ever think about E-waste?
I've come back to Googling it and... computers are kind of poisonous, yeah?
 
I read an article on it in National Geographic what must have been more than 6 years ago?
Small children in impoverished areas were setting it on fire to reclaim the copper for food and getting horribly poisoned from the smoke, if I recall correctly.
 
The documentary Wall-E is also a good resource.
3
 
but no, I don't really think about it much. I just try to take my electronics to a proper waste disposal center, and avoid making frequent purchases of electronic components.
and as much as I'd like to say it's a response to that, it's not really. :\
 
3:53 AM
@littlepootis At the risk of sounding like spam, my employer does sell a 512-core machine.
 
@JerryCoffin Is this some kind of barrel processor?
Also 512 GFLOPS is 20x worse than a P100 on FMA (SAXPY?)
 
@Mikhail No. The cores are fairly conventional RISC, except they add some instructions for integrated network capability (i.e., "send a packet" is a single assembly language instruction, and the CPU has built-in queuing to receive and process packets).
 
@JerryCoffin What is the target application?
 
@Mikhail Yes--the mention of FP performance is as much a warning as a brag--it puts a much stronger emphasis on integer operations, communications, etc.
 
What is the target application?
 
4:00 AM
netwerks
 
FPGA or ASIC not good enough? For graph problems, you can get a good speed up with a barrel CPU: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cray_X2 , although it is a tragedy that no modern implementations of the design exist.
 
@VermillionAzure Lots of pure elements are toxic, especially metals. Given the purity required for components, it's best not to inhale or pulverize computer parts ^^
 
@Mikhail Relatively sparse neural networks and large graph traversal kinds of things. Also does pretty well at some other sparse operations, though that wasn't in the original intent.
 
@JerryCoffin You heard of this one right? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cray_XMT . The two designs look similiar, but on the other hand I have no clue what I'm talking about.
 
@Mikhail Yup-- (at least) one of our engineers is a former Cray guy. Ours is sort of the opposite from that. They (try to) get efficiency by executing lots of threads per core, which tries for throughput at the expense of relatively long latency. Ours keeps individual cores about as simple as possible by doing only in-order, single-thread execution, then giving you a lot of cores to run things on (and a lot of registers to play with, so you can do quite a bit without touching memory at all).
It's also quite different in one other respect: instead of attempting to cover main memory latency with caching, it goes the opposite direction, and treats main memory as essentially an I/O device--or actually, a separate little processor on the network (i.e., to read or write its main data memory, you actually send out a network packet, and for a read, an event is set (in hardware) when you get your data.
 
4:15 AM
@JerryCoffin So, what happens on global memory access? The idea on the the Threadstorm was that under typical execution threads were stalled on global memory access, but when the memory eventually arrived the thread would run. I don't think there was much of a cache. In this way you achieved computation perfectly matched with your memory throughput.
 
4:30 AM
@Mikhail We did something more like the original Cray design. The Cray 1 used SRAM for its main memory, so the memory could keep up with the processor, even without a cache. We used embedded DRAM instead, and added a "feeder"--kind of like a programmable DMA controller, that can push data into the CPU with minimal intervention.
 
Does the coder explicitly control the "feeder"?
 
@Mikhail Yes.
 
So the threads can stall out when they aren't being fed?
 
@Mikhail They don't stall, but can explicitly put them to sleep. In that respect, it's pure RISC: most operations only operate on registers. A memory read means sending out a read packet. You then get a reply packet asynchronously, and if you need to, you can sleep until the reply arrives. To get efficiency, you (obviously) want to send the read packet far enough ahead of needing the data that you rarely sleep for very long.
Typically you use its built-in queue. Issue a couple of reads to start with, then wait for something to arrive in the queue. As soon as it does, you issue another read, and then start processing the packet that already arrived. Lather, rinse, repeat.
 
4:47 AM
I'm struggling to put my finger on the exact place this kind of design "wins". In a more conventional approach threads implicitly stall on global memory access, in the barrel design (or even GPU) you move onto the next thread, here you explicitly feed them. Seems like the two achieve the same effect (aka the program runs). What do you gain? Compared to an Intel CPU you get a lot of threads, but compared to a Threadstorm design (besides the fact that Yarc Data sold out?)?
 
@Mikhail Threadstorm is pretty much like Hyperthreading taken to an extreme. It lives with long latency and slow execution of an individual thread for the sake of throughput. Ours can execute lots of threads, but nearly the sacrifice in latency/single thread speed. It does tend to have the same general shortcoming though: it only really works for lots of threads.
The other big difference is in scalability. Since memory is addressed as a network device, you can (quite literally) add more processors and memory almost indefinitely. Accessing memory in another data center (for example) obviously adds latency, but doesn't require any fundamental changes to the code.
 
Images can’t contain alpha channels or transparencies.
err, why?
 
@JerryCoffin Okay, I think I'm starting to understand. So, the real magic is the on-chip network like access to global memory? Unlike barrel processors, those threads are fed sequentially, you can control which CPU gets the global memory data?
 
5:04 AM
@Mikhail Yes. The other part of it is that the main memory is broken up into lots of (fairly) small chunks, each with its own memory controller, so lots of cores can read/write concurrently.
 
Cool thanks. The multiple memory controllers is something we desperately need, even for x86!
 
@Mikhail I'd certainly agree. Years ago, I did some work with a logic analyzer connected to an x86 memory bus. Even then memory was so much slower than the the CPU that for a lot of code, the CPU was sitting idle an almost distressing amount of the time. Makes the giant caches understandable--but even they aren't enough for quite a lot of tasks.
 
Instead we got a massive, almost phallic, iGPU
I'm waiting for Intel to get off their butt, glue two i7s together, double the pin count, and call it an i14. The stuff is made out of sand anyways.
 
To be fair, I think Intel has done a good job aiming for better PCIe/interconnect.
@Mikhail Just add another processor. ;)
 
Conspiracy Theory: Intel is content with sitting on their butt, the moment they get anything resembling competition they can easily double their compute throughput.
 
5:16 AM
Surely their spread thin on their efforts.
But nah, I only really want lower prices.
 
I think its no accident that Intel revenue doubled since 2008
 
we’re implementing an ongoing process of evaluating and removing apps that no longer function as intended, don’t follow current review guidelines, or are outdated.

We noticed that your app has not been updated in a significant amount of time.
 
@Mikhail That's not about conspiracy--it's a matter of simple economics. Yes, they could obviously design a CPU without an iGPU--but designing it would cost money.
 
you want to pick up a fight? you wanna a fight?!!
 
@JerryCoffin Its called a Xeon, I have one. The conspiracy is why they don't just stick two CPUs together.
 
5:21 AM
@Mikhail That too, of course--and the top-end desktop chips are basically just relabeled Xeons.
 
Or put a large DRAM cache near the chip on every chip.
 
The real solution is to make a chip that is twice as large, which they tried with KNL (but then they got greedy, and nobody could financially justify it)
 
Might have to do with process yields (and of course, those margins).
 
Revenue doubled since 2008, but yes, they obviously don't want to cannibalize their market.
 
@Mikhail That's not really entirely about greed. The cost of a die is (roughly) proportional to the cube of its area, so twice as big means 8 times as expensive.
 
5:24 AM
But the cost of the SI they use is certainly a minor portion of their expenses... A more interesting argument is about quality control, but they seem to have solved most of that with KNL...
notice the bigger chip size
 
To be fair again though, their consumer parts are there to scale from mobile to desktop. So it's necessary for them to integrate their iGPU across the board. Xeons are expensive because their not part of this consumer lineup (they do not have the same economies of scale).
@Mikhail There's no mention how many dies have defects and are discarded though.
 
@MarkGarcia It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Price it on the assumption of low volume, and of course the volume stays low, because it's too expensive for most to afford.
 
Also this isn't true, Intel sells a lot. And some of their least sold models, like the x86 designed for wearables (!) are the cheapest. They got economy of scale on almost everything.
 
@MarkGarcia Depends heavily on the design, and how much redundancy they build into the cache (for example).
 
@JerryCoffin Also, that most consumers don't need a Xeon. :)
What I get is that Intel's consumer strategy is currently focused on experience. So you get better peripherals, better power management. They aren't really wrong to go with this.
 
5:31 AM
@Mikhail The cube of the area part still means a lot, no doubt about that. But, for the wearables thing (to use your example), they may easily be selling at a loss. Or, it may be small enough that they can fit quite a few in around the edges of a wafer of larger die.
 
Intel's consumer strategy is "lets exploit our monopoly"
 
@MarkGarcia Probably--it certainly makes sense, given that most consumers would still really be perfectly fine with a 1 GHz Pentium 3.
 
@Mikhail If you are a monopoly then you're inherently exploiting your position no matter what you do.
 
They could try to innovate, by doing any of the things we talked about. For example, NVIDIA has been improving performance, perhaps 50% in the last two years.
 
But really, I don't think Intel's been lazy in making improvements.
 
5:37 AM
You enjoy 5% performance gains for non-iGPU workloads?
 
@Mikhail And that's because GPUs are more scalable than CPUs. Again, think also of the efficiency and peripheral side of things.
 
We talked about a lot of ways Intel improve performance mostly by scaling core counts, and memory controllers, but instead they sit on their ass.
 
@Mikhail Let's assume they doubled performance tomorrow. How much real benefit would it provide to most typical consumers?
(especially if it was done by adding more cores, so it had little/no effect on single-core performance).
 
You bring up a great point. Let me tell you a story. I have a HP Stream 11 laptop (it cost $150 at Wallmart), it was good for about two years, but now it struggles with most websites. Modern web layout engines are scalable, so I expect to see a performance improvement.
 
@JerryCoffin Intel's kind of at fault with that though, as they do not make enough incentives for devs to code in a thread-scalable manner. They could at least had continued with Atom as an alternative consumer platform with a focus on many-core design.
 
5:45 AM
@MarkGarcia Which is also bullshit, Intel pushes OpenCL hard and made things like Cilk
 
@Mikhail Those are HPC things.
 
OCL is popular with image processing, which is a very consumer oriented task. I would call them multimedia, which found use in HPC. Anyways, Intel has done a good job of pushing multi-threading. Its just my conspiracy theory that they are holding back so they can respond when competition heats up.
 
@JerryCoffin It would make browsers load twice as fast. For about a month that is. Then the browser devs will find a way to make it 4x slower.
10
 
@Mikhail Fine. Personally I doubt they could make as much of a leap forward like AMD has done though. The reason for AMD's leap is with how they're seriously behind in their game. The reasonable thing we'll get is a price war.
@Mikhail Also, lol that's a nice one ("when competition heats up").
 
6:01 AM
@Mysticial so what's up between you and that kitty from hell? looks like She assaulted you out of blue
 
@Mysticial Exactly this. Performance overhead is like a gas that expands to consume the computer's execution. Before I used ad block, it wasn't uncommon for a page to load partially and then spend a minute loading ads.
 
@MarkGarcia I don't know on a conceptual level why Ryzen is better than Intel, price is the only thing I can think of.
 
@ProblemSlover She doesn't just assaults me. She's one of the longest and most persistent trolls of the room who has been at it with pretty much half the room. She's been banned multiples, but never crosses the line to get a permaban. Though I think recently (in the past year), she's been targeting a smaller portion of the room. I haven't been paying much attention though unless she targets me.
 
@Mikhail They basically have gone with the Intel route to cope up with software optimized for Intel workloads.
 
I'm having a shit time trying to overclock my Ryzen.
 
6:06 AM
@MarkGarcia Dude that is too vague. Here is a picture of a Ryzen, how is it architecturally different than an Intel CPU? images.anandtech.com/doci/11170/…
 
@Mysticial I see.. Well it happens when kitty doesn't get laid for a while. Understandable :P
 
Here is another one:
 
@Mikhail Sorry my sarcasm meter is quite dysfunctional right now. In anyway, I see a serious lack of iGPU.
 
If anyone is considering building a mATX rig with water cooling with the intention to overclock, pay attention to your fucking VRM mosfets. They're gonna overheat.
 
@Mysticial I'm now thinking that XFR is a marketing scheme to make users feel good about themselves.
 
6:11 AM
@MarkGarcia Okay but Xeon's don't have that. Any other differences?
 
XFR is nice if you don't intend to overclock.
I'm having trouble getting my box stable at 4 GHz. Somehow XFR manages to single-core boost up to 4.1 GHz with 1.385 vcore. Yet I can't get all 8 cores stable at 4.0 GHz with even 1.400 vcore.
There's clearly something I'm not understanding. Or if there's an LLC/vdroop issue somewhere in there that I'm not aware of.
I can't really push above 1.400 vcore until I get a much stronger side-panel fan. Or I'll kill those VRMs.
 
@Mikhail The serious disregard for somone's AVX-512 needs and the smaller number of PCIe lanes? (okay I really need to know what manner of sarcasm is this)
@Mysticial That's base frequency?
 
@MarkGarcia No. 3.6 GHz is the base. XFR runs it at 3.7 GHz all cores and 4.1 single-core.
 
okay
 
On all systems I've had in the past, it was always possible to get all cores to run at the single-core boost frequency without touching the voltages provided you have adequate cooling. The reason for this is that the max frequency of a particular core is largely dictated by the voltage it's fed. The reason why single-core boosts are higher is that running all cores at that frequency will put the chip over the TDP limit.
 
6:22 AM
@MarkGarcia Yeah, its a cheap Intel knock off. They could have done interesting stuff like combined the CPU with iGPU (like they were supposed to do with the ATI acquisition...). Actually, any difference in functionality can be attributed to not having enough silicon due to their inferior manufacturing process.
 
But when you're overclocking with fancy cooling, you don't care about the TDP limit and it's possible to run all cores at the maximum single-core boost frequency.
 
@Mikhail So your point is that Intel could basically smash AMD when they decide to.
 
Ryzen is the first time this does not hold. IOW, there's something I don't understand.
And I'm hesitant to keep throwing more vcore at the chip until it's stable at 4 GHz.
 
@MarkGarcia Yes, although as Bloomberg pointed out, AMD has almost no market share so there would be almost no financial incentive to do so. But I'm also pissed off at AMD for a lack of innovation, and selling their technology to the Chinese.
 
@Mysticial Probably internal temps. It has a lot of sensors spread throughout the die. It could have limits set for these.
 
6:26 AM
@MarkGarcia I'm suspecting that's involved. Ryzen's voltages are extremely dynamic. And TBH, I really have no fucking clue what it's doing.
The next thing I'm gonna try is to see if I can lock the vcore.
But then you run into issues with vdroop. And I have no idea how AMD's load-line calibration (LLC) behaves. Intel's LLC I sort of understand since I have almost a decade of experience with them.
If I lost anyone who's interested: vdroop stands for "voltage droop". It's a drop in voltage when there's a lot of current. So when you set your voltage to 1.4 volts, the actual voltage under load may be lower (like 1.2v). This drop in voltage can cause loss of stability. So mobos, BIOS's have options to try to compensate for it. The main approach is called, "load line calibration" that will increase the input voltage under load to try to keep the actual voltage constant.
 
@Mikhail If you view it on a certain way, the way they achieved these price levels is innovation. They've decided that their current feature set is Good Enough™. I do agree that they could have at least brought something new and exciting to the table.
 
Compared to the 2000s were they expanded pin count (hell even x64), the only reason they got a good price level was because Intel chips are already overpriced. The stuff they cut out wasn't a choice, they can't fit into their form factor. A better company would have just made a new form factor.
A worse company would have made Bulldozer.
 
Is that a cable modem?
 
Wait what, no iGPU in Ryzen?
 
nope
 
terrible!
 
They'll be selling AM4 APU parts, but they'll have their old CPU architecture.
 
6:54 AM
Which is really a tragedy on a poetic scale, because AMD was the company that was expected to unify GPUs and CPU.
 
~HSA~
 
I want crazy stuff, like integrating an x86 on a Radeon GPU. Then we can have a socket like the old P3s or my PPC from the Apple days.
 
A while ago I stumbled onto some pretty crazy palette-swapping effects you might enjoy. Jungle Waterfall and Seascape are probably the best two examples.
8
Clearing out bookmarks and I had that one because it impressed me that there's only one image frame in the animations.
 
7:42 AM
@Mikhail That would be an APU. Socket's still big because it integrates memory controller.
 
8:16 AM
@Aaron3468 The images it uses were saved with the file extension "*.LBM"; I don't know whether or not that format has image frames.
I found more on those palette-swapping effects, including the source code; effectgames.com/effect/…
 
If they had used WebGL, it would be possible to store the initial image as grayscale, and then do a 1d texture lookup. For each frame you need refresh the 1D texture, but this isn't too taxing.
>>Rendering a 640x480 indexed image on a 32-bit RGB canvas means walking through and drawing 307,200 pixels per frame, in JavaScript
^This step is non-sense.
 
 
2 hours later…
nwp
10:22 AM
> error: use of undeclared identifier '__builtin_clz'
I want to cry, nothing is working
and I didn't even do anything too funky, just #include <string>
 
10:57 AM
@nwp What compiler are you using?
 
nwp
clang::CompilerInstance
 
user1804599
Git gud.
 
nwp
I should just give up. I have no proper tools, no clue, horribly outdated tutorials that don't work, no one to ask and an actual deadline.
I'll just call it pivoting instead of giving up to pretend not to be a failure.
 
user1804599
What are you attempting?
 
user1804599
11:08 AM
@StackedCrooked The deadline though.
 
nwp
@rightfold Making slight adjustments how to compile code, such as inserting thread_local to global variables. Should be trivial, just use a clang::Rewriter and clang::ASTConsumer, yet I managed to fail for over a year now.
 
user1804599
11:21 AM
@nwp You should just use sed for this :/
 
nwp
I doubt getting a list of all global variables from a C++ program is viable.
If I don't try to compile and just rewrite using a clang-tool I can avoid most of the issues I have now at the cost of the result being shitty, but by now a shitty solution would be welcome.
 
nwp
doesn't actually help
> ** Creating AST consumer for: main.cpp
In file included from main.cpp:3:
In file included from /usr/bin/../lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/6.3.0/../../../../include/c++/6.3.0/string:40:
In file included from /usr/bin/../lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/6.3.0/../../../../include/c++/6.3.0/bits/char_traits.h:40:
In file included from /usr/bin/../lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/6.3.0/../../../../include/c++/6.3.0/bits/postypes.h:40:
In file included from /usr/bin/../lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/6.3.0/../../../../include/c++/6.3.0/cwchar:44:
I don't know what it wants me to do here
 
nwp
@Puppy I tried the gcc include paths thing, actually the clang++ include paths, it gave me error: use of undeclared identifier '__builtin_clz' among many others when I tried to #include <string>.
 
nwp
@Puppy Thanks, looks like it could work. I'll have to check more closely.
 
12:01 PM
WebVR may soon become a thing ..
http://venturebeat.com/2017/03/18/webvr-isnt-sexy-but-it-will-change-the-game-for-vr-this-year/
 
 
1 hour later…
1:13 PM
@AldwinCheung riiighjt
 
1:30 PM
@Morwenn I've got a new draft of my paper! drive.google.com/file/d/0B1-vl-dPgKm_T0Fxeno1a0lGT0E/view
by the way, if you wish I can include you in the acknowledgements, if you do please email me the name under which you want to be listed
 
user1804599
2:07 PM
vertexChildren :: Lens' Vertex (List VertexID)
vertexChildren = lens get set
  where get (Vertex _ children) = children
        set (Vertex body _) children = Vertex body children
 
user1804599
Feels like Java!
 
> If the recursion depth becomes to deep, it
You're missing an o fam
 
@набиячлэвэли thanks!
 
> with sev-
> eral desirable
Not sure if that's how you break in English but that doesn't seem like syllable boundary
 
@набиячлэвэли ask latex not me
 
Ell
2:11 PM
I think that's fine
 
nah
>with several
>desirable
 
29
Q: What are the rules for splitting words at the end of a line?

Mehper C. PalavuzlarWhat are the rules in English language to split words at the end of a line? Where exactly must the hyphen split the word?

> Don't if you can
 
damn Markdown
 
2:25 PM
WHAT THE HELL
Why isn't my school teaching Haskell
Haskell is amazing. Not perfect but amazing
 
Ell
 
@VermillionAzure because it's garbage
 
Seriously, if we could get more stuff like Haskell in C++ that would be really cool. They even have a nice documentation tool looks like
 
user1804599
@Ven I can't choose. Help.
 
user1804599
reload next = do
  documentID <- use first
  document <- lift $ getDocument documentID
  second .= document
  pure next
-- vs
reload = (_ <$ ((second .= _) =<< lift <<< getDocument =<< use first))
 
2:31 PM
@rightfold So I've finally gotten around to Haskell
AND IT'S AMAZIN
 
user1804599
Yay!
 
OH MY GOD IO MONAD IS AMAZING
Can I get this in C++...?
Hm........
 
try pressing the semicolon key
 
I mean why does Haskell get any flack at all? I don't get it.
 
user1804599
@VermillionAzure Yeah sure.
 
user1804599
2:33 PM
I/O actions can be represented by nilary functions.
 
People are like, "omg purity sux" but I don't really see it.
@rightfold Come again?
 
user1804599
The bind operation is trivial. See github.com/purescript/purescript-eff/blob/master/src/Control/… for examples in JS, which can be translated directly to C++.
 
@rightfold I see. But does JS optimize all of those internal currying away? Just curious. I wonder if C++ would too...
 
user1804599
No.
 
user1804599
You don't need currying though.
 
2:35 PM
Yeah, I just see that IO monad as an extremely useful engineering pattern right now
 
user1804599
You just need thunking for I/O actions, so that they are not immediately performed (which would be impure).
 
@rightfold ???
Why would you need to thunk it? thunk as in dynamic-wind thunks?
 
user1804599
No, as in nilary functions.
 
@rightfold I get unary when I google that btw
 
user1804599
A nilary function is a function with no arguments.
 
user1804599
2:37 PM
You use it to delay evaluation.
 
user1804599
Which you want to do with I/O actions: delay their evaluation until main.
 
user1804599
Because evaluating them is impure.
 
@rightfold Oh, you mean a 0-argument function.
 
user1804599
n-ary means n arguments. nil means 0.
 
Why would you want to delay them anyways? I don't really see a need for it.
The laziness + IO I don't get yet
 
user1804599
2:39 PM
Say you have a list of I/O actions, [putStrLn "A", putStrLn "B"] :: [IO ()].
 
Right.
 
user1804599
Creating this list should not print anything.
 
Ah. But isn't that just what it means to describe an imperative list of expressions?
 
user1804599
Assigning the I/O actions to main will do it, instead.
 
@VermillionAzure because it's garbage prolly
 
user1804599
2:40 PM
A value of type IO a is a description of what to do.
 
user1804599
To actually do it, you assign it to main.
 
I think you're essentially talking about the derived expression form of (begin from Scheme. If you use macros, it's like nullary lambdas per expression.
It's like ((lambda () expr #| other expressions |# )) or something like that.
 
@VermillionAzure Monads are like onions
 
@milleniumbug No, monads are like mutexes. I must Cinch harder.
@rightfold Hmmmm I guess so. The evaluation semantics for Haskell are kind of strange
It's... varying and not as uniform as Lisp.
 
user1804599
It works that way with strict evaluation too.
 
user1804599
2:42 PM
The runtime representation of IO a is not the same as a.
 
user1804599
It's a impure function that returns an a.
 
user1804599
The only way to call it is to assign it to main.
 
user1804599
This is what keeps everything pure.
 
@rightfold Right, but that name <- IO a part is where we extract the value, right?
Because there is where we go from IO a -> a?
 
user1804599
No, it creates a new I/O action that calls the other one.
 
user1804599
2:43 PM
@VermillionAzure Yes.
 
I see. So it's just an extra step to explicitly make it clear that you are getting a thing from the IO wrapper.
Is <- a monad-related operator?
Haskell just seems to love their syntax lol
@rightfold Question -- does the IO stuff make it harder for looser optimizations to be done? e.g. If I wanted to change the order around and optimize, must the ordering of that do part's expressions be "frozen?"
 
user1804599
You can't just reorder I/O actions.
 
user1804599
They may have side-effects.
 
user1804599
You can freely reorder the evaluation of them, but not the way they are sequenced using >>= or <*>.
 
user1804599
You can evaluate print (fib 100) and print (factorize huge) in any order (even in parallel), but you can't turn print (fib 100) >>= \_ -> print (factorize huge) into print (factorize huge) >>= \_ -> print (fib 100).
 
2:50 PM
@VermillionAzure are they?
@VermillionAzure it's not an operator. It's syntax sugar
 
@BartekBanachewicz ...but for what
@rightfold Mmm fair enough I guess
I should probably read more
 
@VermillionAzure do { a <- ioA; return a; } is ioA >>= \a -> return a
it's specifics to monads (and applicatives nowadays), but not to IO
 
user1804599
It's lovely that first and second are tuple lenses.
 
user1804599
Profunctor optics ftw.
 
@BartekBanachewicz So looks like it's bind with a return lambda.
I see.
 
2:56 PM
@VermillionAzure well with any lambda
just find something about do notation
 
mm I see.
So... how much can you infer about Haskell's algorithm properties and runtime performance?
e.g. that quicksort example -- is it in place?
I heard a gripe about that on a blog post
 
@VermillionAzure not much. The optimizer has a lot of leeway
 
@BartekBanachewicz Isn't the laziness also problematic in a few cases?
 
@VermillionAzure you're still thinking in terms of operation executed, and I think that fundamentally fails in Haskell. Think in terms of values produced and it makes more sense
@VermillionAzure I've never had problems with it
 
@BartekBanachewicz Something something laziness and call stack memory overflow because not evaluated, etc.
 
2:59 PM
Or rather, I've never have had problems with it with normal code.
the traces not being printed or printed in the wrong order are a different thing I'd say
 

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