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12:03 AM
we are all one together
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Whoah, you are not me. For starters, I'm sitting here. You are not. Also I'm kind of uncomfortable with where you have your hand.
 
@CaptainGiraffe Read the post.
Gosh, I really can be quite an idiot, can't I?
2
 
i can be an idiot.
can't draw a chessboard pattern with Qt.
 
I have read 'The Egg' before, the feeling now is the same as before, it feels quite hollow. The empathy angle strikes me as too constructed. Well I'm an idiot too.
 
should I undelete my question?
 
12:09 AM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Gee, such starbait.
 
I feel so energetic right now.
 
I feel lethargic
 
Smart inserters are my favourite tool today.
 
is there a reference for drawing things, with Qt, for idiots?
 
Ell
12:14 AM
She's a maniac, maniac
 
:/
 
on the floor
@R.MartinhoFernandes ;p
@CaptainGiraffe I don't like the idea that we should suddenly think everything is about me, me, me
the intention is good, but..
 
posted on November 23, 2014 by Herb Sutter

I just posted my ISO C++ meeting trip report over on isocpp.org covering our meeting in Urbana-Champaign earlier this month. The ISO C++ committee is shipping more work sooner via concurrent Technical Specifications, but it’s still fairly new to find ourselves doing so much work that the “new normal” is to issue an international ballot from every […]

 
a standard is just a standard.
 
12:23 AM
@Feeds I attended part of that reception to steal food
 
is there going to be a ISO C++ meeting in NZ?
 
no, because its in Asia
 
There's someone called Chloe Tomalak who keeps telling people she owns tomalak@gmail.com. Well, guess what.. she doesn't.
> Fail ISO C++ Meeting
ahaha what:
> with the only breaks being short lunch and dinner breaks, and roughly 10pm-8am for sleep and breakfast
10pm
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Shit, that reminds me.
Another student sent me their essay.
I need to warn them. Again
 
12:30 AM
@Ell wot error m8
@R.MartinhoFernandes ys dat
 
Because some dumbass with the same name as me keeps giving their students the wrong e-mail address.
 
Ell
@LightnessRacesinOrbit meh. it's fixed now
 
universal refs are now officially forwarding references
 
Either that or his students are dumb as fuck.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes The latter is a safe bet.
 
12:32 AM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit you're like 45 months late there bub
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes ahaha
@Rapptz No, I'm not. It became official yesterday. Read the meeting report, pal.
 
There's also some cult leader from Brazil that does the same mistake.
 
(specifically, N4262 was incorporated into the C++17 draft)
 
Ell
> New core language papers adopted for C++17 (highlights: extended constant evaluation, folding expressions, uncaught_exceptions, forwarding references, u8 character literals)
 
I have some of their financial details because the accountant sent them to me by mistake.
 
12:33 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Just remember: they're both you
 
Ell
I didn't know forwarding references needed a paper
oh it's just a wording paper
 
> Finally, I had proposed allowing a return statement to be allowed to call explicit constructors, and at our summer meeting in Rapperswil the Evolution Working Group agreed with allowing the syntax “return { /* whatever */ };” to invoke explicit constructors, and I got to final wording in the Core Working Group which is the last stage before it is brought before the full committee for approval.
However, because this proved to be controversial in the larger group, I voluntarily withdrew the proposal – at least for the time being, and I don’t currently plan to bring it forward again.
R.I.P.
 
Ell
You think {} should call explicit ctors?
 
I find that decision a good thing. Readability is key.
 
12:38 AM
yes
 
Ell
{...} is perfectly readable
 
exactly
@Ell derp
 
@Ell No it's not.
 
it's legible; that's different
 
Ell
12:38 AM
@CaptainGiraffe what about it is difficult to read?
 
@Ell what about it says "invokes explicit constructors only when given to return"?
 
Context for starters.
 
you cannot realistically expect someone to read that from {...}
 
It goes both ways, you can have double foo() { return int { 0 }; } and the return expression tells you nothing useful (type-wise).
 
Ell
Oh yeah, only return has the power for explicit. I guess that's inconsistent at best
 
12:40 AM
There’s no way to win, it’s the price of conversions.
 
Ell
@LightnessRacesinOrbit {} is universal ctor syntax or whatever it's called, we can expect other c++ programmers to know c++ can't we?
 
@Ell not when it's changing every three minutes, no
 
@LucDanton well that example goes out of its way to make stuff hard to analyse.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit lol
@CaptainGiraffe Er.
Missing the point.
 
Ell
> On Monday evening, most of the committee spent three hours on coroutines and fibers. There were three major concurrency proposals related to smaller-than-thread concurrency such as resumable functions. At the end, the group expressed a strong direction to pursue coroutines and fibers (as strawman names) as distinct concurrency primitives, in addition to threads.
^woooo!
 
12:41 AM
@CaptainGiraffe That being explicit doesn't necessarily help is his point. You're missing the forest for the trees.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Please elaborate.
 
@CaptainGiraffe Being explicit doesn't necessarily help read anything.
 
To satisfy everybody you’d need something like explicit return<must_match_return_type_exactly> /*no conversion allowed*/;. Then you’d have a context-independent return statement that direct-inits the return value. But it’s not very sexy.
 
Can you be more... explicit?
 
Just because there's a type named in the return expression doesn't mean you can pretend there's everything you need to know there.
You mentioned something about context.
 
12:43 AM
But it sure helps.
 
His point is that C++ has no way to put all the context you need in the return expression anyway.
It's always context-dependent.
 
That is well and true, but not indicative of readable code.
 
@CaptainGiraffe I brought my example up because ‘a false sense of security’ is precisely the (valid) argument that was used against explicit returns.
 
@CaptainGiraffe That you can't have code as readable as you want is the point.
Once you drop that idea you can start considering the feature, then.
Your concern would be important in a world with a different C++.
 
Suppose you were in charge of writing C++’s tuple type (as a library type, not a language feature). What constructors would you prescribe?
I don’t know if I want to put up with return { some_tag, pack... };
 
12:48 AM
I would avoid a tuple type. It has the same problems as the early .NET languages had with Variant.
 
Wat.
That's.
Not at all related.
 
Ell
@CaptainGiraffe what are those? (out of interest)
I didn't even know any early .net languages had a variant type
 
They had the problem of having to inspect stuff att runtime. A tuple is a pack without semantics of its own
 
What’s the connection between the two sentences?
 
12:50 AM
A tuple needs no inspection at runtime.
 
i need more sleep.
 
(For everyone's benefit: a Variant is a top type in COM; a type that can have values of any type; void* on steroids)
 
windows: IJW
 
Not sure, even my head is wobbly.
 
Lightness Races in Orbit is cute
2
 
12:52 AM
@edition he's a guy, you can stop drooling
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes you should explain threaded vs multithreaded apartment. That one always gets a good laugh
 
damn it
 
@Borgleader u fucken wot m8
 
if you are a girl, you are cute.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Coward is great.
 
Ell
12:53 AM
i am grill
 
I'm a lion
 
rawwwrrrr
 
Ell
@TonyTheLion how was shopping?
 
@Ell awful
 
Ell
12:54 AM
What did you buy?
 
I'm a woman being carried by a robot.
 
I'm a long horse.
 
lamb chops
 
well, when you spend six hours a day inside, in a dark room.
 
Ell
I need to read concepts-lite vs concepts-proper
 
12:54 AM
My palms are sweating.
 
Ell
My balls are sweating.
 
@Ell Not really. Concepts proper are (for now) a dead issue.
 
there is vomit on his sweater already
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes yeah - leads into Docking which is even better but didn't make the OST
 
Ell
@JerryCoffin I never really read about the original concepts and I just want to know what the differences are
 
12:55 AM
Where We're Going is great - Mountains my favourite, probably. Stay obviously.
 
@TonyTheLion I was gonna make the same reference high five
 
Ell
or is concepts-lite now just a name for concepts v2?
 
@TonyTheLion like his mom's spaghetti
 
@Borgleader high five
 
@Ell It’s not.
 
12:56 AM
concepts-lite is now just a name for concepts v0.5
 
user1804599
yay
 
user1804599
my first oil refinery
 
anyone made german scrabble with the Qt framework?
 
@Ell The basic difference is that concepts proper attempted to provide some way for you to make assertions about the semantics of operations, not just syntax that would be allowed. IOW, concepts lite let me say things like: "I should be able to add A and B with syntax like A + B. Concepts proper attempted to add an ability to say something to the effect that: "and the result will be the sum of A and B".
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit It's also an awesome sequence in the movie. It's overly drawn-out for effect but, unlike in 2001, something actually happens so it works a lot better IMO.
 
Ell
12:58 AM
@JerryCoffin Oh right. That's interesting, I'd have no idea how that would be implemented or how it would look
 
I am 12 years old.
 
@edition You can't be on this site.
 
why?
 
You're violating the terms of service.
 
user1804599
Zoidberg is happy.
 
12:58 AM
It is easy to code with Qt. Why do you keep doing this? It is very likely that Qt is not your problem.
 
@rightføld :)
 
joking.
 
@Ell While people did have some ideas, a lot of the reason the proposal was scrapped is that they couldn't come to any real agreement about it.
 
user1804599
@TonyTheLion I made a lube factory baby <3
 
Ell
I have lots of lube also
 
12:59 AM
@rightføld lubin it up eh
 
C is still better than C++.
haha
silly operator overloading, and all this template stuff.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes But you are also 12 years old (and so am I) for the right number base.
 
:)
what base?
 
Ell
I wonder if this will be in c++17 stackoverflow.com/questions/24231966/…
 
i have the same age as the C++ standard!
 
1:02 AM
I'm 14 Martian years old.
 
user1804599
Can repair packs be applied automatically?
 
@edition In my case? 9...Hmm...can't seem to find a good up-arrow character, but imagine 4 up-arrows there...
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I think it went on for just the right amount of time.
No Need to Come Back is creepy as fuck. Was that when Dr Brand was admitting his you know what?
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit That's what I wanted to say.
 
Ell
> shaft-width: 1px;
 
1:04 AM
> overly drawn-out
ahem
 
user1804599
This game reminds me.
 
Ell
markdown is hard.
 
wait. so, Lightness. you are a girl?
 
user1804599
Some guy I know once lied to his girlfriend about being the CEO of Royal Dutch Shell and she believed him and was impressed.
 
@Ell is that a euphemism? are you trying to tell us something about yourself
 
1:05 AM
@edition Your profile says you're 17, not 16.
@edition Sure.
 
Ell
@edition does it matter?
 
@edition FFS, go take a cold shower.
 
@edition Just an XML girl in a JSON world, babe.
 
hahaha
 
Ell
@Borgleader I found it in borgleader.css
 
1:05 AM
lol
 
@Ell OUCH D:
 
XML has drawbacks
 
user1804599
I am the only girl here.
 
@edition "if you want to turn data into big data, encode it as XML" -some dude on twitter
 
@rightføld Where's "here"?
 
user1804599
1:06 AM
My room.
 
user1804599
And to some extent Lounge<C++>.
 
what about raw structured formats?
 
Small data.
 
@edition I prefer medium rare formats.
 
user1804599
Use an XML-specific grepping tool.
 
1:08 AM
PROTIP: Turn data into big data by encoding it as XML.
 
please don't use grep with XML.
 
user1804599
Or just use rm.
 
hahahahahaha
 
:20091966 I don't need any tools to help with forgetting. I do that just fine all by myself.
 
lol
 
1:09 AM
I need more reputation points on SO.
 
ahhh man I love being single
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Oh right, gyesen. I read his blog on a semi-regular basis. The guy is really smart.
 
@edition Me too.
 
@edition Reputation on SO means nothing.
 
user1804599
@LightnessRacesinOrbit me too.
 
1:09 AM
i have 21. hahaha
 
user1804599
Though I don't know how it is to not be single.
 
Lightness, interested?
 
@Jerry Well you need some to get by...
 
user1804599
Sex is nice but I don't like people.
4
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I'm double, bitch.
 
1:11 AM
I'm half =/
 
Ell
@rightføld @R.MartinhoFernandes I think he's trying to tell you something
 
user1804599
No, C++ is poop.
 
I don't know how to organize oil production.
 
I am float?
 
user1804599
@Jefffrey What do you want to make?
 
1:11 AM
I mean in general.
 
lets keep this PG rated.
 
Let's not.
 
or M.
 
@M0dem I don't think I need any to get by.
 
This chat is not rated ...
 
1:12 AM
:D
 
user1804599
Well (pun intended), you place pumpjacks, connect them to oil refineries using pipes and then connect those refineries to tanks or chemical plants.
 
@rightføld Like batteries and plastic. I know how to do them, I just don't know how to organize stuff.
 
Like if I should run a tube of each element everywhere or what.
 
@edition Interested in what, babe?
 
1:13 AM
For normal production I usually have 4 belts, 2 up and 2 down with a total of 8 different elements running and each thing picks up what it needs or produces a different one.
 
@edition here, go play with this notpron.org/notpron
 
user1804599
@Jefffrey I keep belts separated and things only go where they are used.
 
Lightness, a date?
 
@rightføld Like this ^
 
user1804599
Why does it look so crappy in that screenshot?
 
user1804599
1:16 AM
On my machine everything is smoother.
 
low res
Otherwise I can't play the game.
 
user1804599
Anyway my assembly line isn't laid out like that.
 
Ok, but that's not the point. The point is that I have no idea how to organize stuff. I know how to do them (or I can look it up), but I don't know how to handle liquids.
Also can I run out of water from 1 off shore pump?
 
user1804599
@Jefffrey No idea.
 
Ell
@Jefffrey don't think so
 
1:19 AM
user image
5
@edition I'm too old for you. :) But thanks that's sweet.
 
Ell
@LightnessRacesinOrbit lol
 
:'(
 
Also, I live on the third moon of Saturn so it would be difficult, logistically.
 
Ell
@edition you can't just propose that, you have to charm an older woman
 
@Ell Sometimes the direct approach can be refreshing
 
1:21 AM
hey, I live in New Zealand anyway.
 
Jesus Christ.
A new guy hitting on lightness.
It's nice to see that things remain the same.
 
in the Bay of Plenty.
 
user1804599
@Jefffrey This is what it looks like in my world: gist.github.com/rightfold/5ffaf451ea16984c3236
 
@rightføld You did that with some program right?
Like some graphical program.
 
user1804599
No.
 
1:25 AM
you could draw that with ncurses.
 
@rightføld What about batteries?
 
user1804599
I'm not there yet.
 
@edition Maybe I do too
 
in NZ?
 
1:26 AM
No, he doesn't.
 
@Jefffrey I use CodePlotter (with a few modifications) for things like that.
 
That's all the clue I'm gonna give.
 
user1804599
@Jefffrey But it would look like this: gist.github.com/rightfold/5ffaf451ea16984c3236
 
I guess on the theory that a picture is worth a thousand words, linking all those pictures just killed chat for the duration in which we'd normally post ~4'000 words...
 
1:35 AM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit CGI crap
 
user1804599
 
Ell
I need to lsep
 
Thread.Lsep
 
user1804599
You need lisp.
 
user1804599
1:50 AM
I like bash' fi and esac.
 
user1804599
But done is just bad.
 
user1804599
Should be rof or elihw.
 
I don't like fi and esac
they look like the dumbest things ever
 
why doesn't bash use closing brackets for conditional blocks?
 
Ell
You know what I don't need to sleep
@AlexM. I agree, total disaster
They are a joke
Who thought backwards keywords would be readable >.<
 
user1804599
1:55 AM
@edition because sh doesn't use closing brackets for conditional blocks.
 
ok
 
user1804599
I want holographic Factorio.
 
what happened to C shell?
 
user1804599
Tcl is best.
 
why not make C into a scripting language?
 
user1804599
1:58 AM
Don't do anything to C. It's terrible enough already.
 
user1804599
And people will continue using C99 regardless of what happens anyway.
 
@edition It pretty much died.
 
I wish there was a way to generate coal.
 
@edition it went to C hell
 
@edition you don't C it around anymore
 
2:02 AM
@edition Because as a scripting language, C pretty much sucks. Especially at the time, most C programmers were already familiar with Bourne Shell (and similar), that the similarity to C provided little real advantage to most people.
 
ba dum tschh
 
Ell
Hmm
I don't get it
Why is rudolf bad at history?
 
@Ell Look at the first-quarter mark as well. It's not "why is Rudolf bad at history?", but "Why did Rudolf suddenly get a lot worse at history?"
 
why did Rudolf suddenly get a lot worse at history?
 
Ell
2:04 AM
Ohhhh haha
 
whooosh
I don't get it
 
Rudolf went down in History, @Alex.
 
Ell
His grade in history decreased
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit ooooooh
 
Ell
2:05 AM
I was going to tell him :%(
I can't type
 
I only played it back in my mind to "you would even say it glows"
 
sorry carry on
 
Ell
Too late now.
 
@rightføld ikr
 
Ell
I need to figure out how I'm going to do this database anyway
y
 
2:08 AM
Can't believe Rudolph didn't do geography ... Did Santa use a gps?
 
@chmod711telkitty GPS can't keep up with the speed he needs to travel.
 
Good night lounge. Sleep well.
 
@Jefffrey The Lounge never Sleeps! (though its denizens do...)
 
2:36 AM
@Neil: The bank sent me a statement address "Lightning" once. Idiots. — Lightness Races in Orbit just now
@Jefffrey nn
 
it takes a communist society to give birth to a brand of candies called "The Liberation"
what kind of name is that for candies wtf
(this was in Romania)
then again, I guess everything was propaganda fueled back then
 
It accidentally became 02:45
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Oh my. Mountains. Wow.
 
Ell
I've a few things to say
Pork pie
Shiny eye
Champaign pedo
I need a diverse codebase to document
One with "c++ specific features"
Anybody need something documenting?
 
2:52 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes yeah
you mean to say you hadn't listened to them all yet?!
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit It's terrible. I can't do anything else if I'm listening to it.
Hmm.
Maybe I shouldn't have bought the edition I bought: myplaydirect.com/interstellar-soundtrack/…
 

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