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12:00 AM
23?
 
dam black box design nowadays without stamps... Make it really hard to find the actual model
 
@aclarke There is no evolution. Penguins were intelligently designed. I really believe this is true (but then, I believe that pure accidents of mutations by gamma ray qualifies as at least as intelligent as people who believe in intelligent design).
 
no?
Why would it be?
 
Darn
 
and why would I be 23?
 
12:00 AM
23?
No
2:
 
Why do people always assume that
 
user1646075
When I cut down a tree drowning in vines 3 weeks ago, a wattle bird kept dive-bombing me. Then as a big branch fell, a fledgling which still had a few puppy-feathers on it puffed out of the branches and just managed to flap off to another tree :-( Hope it's doing well. At least it could fly
 
well, how else did you find the number?
 
@paul23 I'm guessing "paul23" might have something to do with it.
 
user1646075
@JerryCoffin intelligent? Have you seen them trying to walk?
 
12:01 AM
Using age for your username gets outdated really fast
 
They don give a fuck
 
@aclarke Read the rest of it (especially my idea of what qualifies as "intelligent").
 
but at my very first forum I joined a username needed to be at least 6 signs (or so I thought).. Paul12 was taken, so it was easiest to type 23 back than..
I was 17 back then.
 
user1646075
No, Paul clearly thinks he's number 1.
 
@aclarke But he's really number 2.
 
12:02 AM
@paul23 I've had that problem when the internal USB board thingy went bad. I took the hard drive unit out of its box and installed it directly into my PC drive bay - worked fine.
 
user1646075
@JerryCoffin don't spoil the flow....
 
@aclarke Spoiler alert!
 
user1646075
at least you can trust a gamma ray to have a consistent position.
 
lol martin, this is a laptop, otherwise I wouldn't be using an extern HDD
 
user1646075
12:03 AM
I hate how gravity always insists on paying attention.
 
@paul23 Oh... I have a full box and still have external drives:)
 
@aclarke Never pays me anything. Just demands that I pay attention and energy to it.
 
Lol and here I am managing 100GB internal (+1TB)
Installing games on an external HDD ftw!
 
user1646075
@JerryCoffin It never gives a sucker an even break! Just broken bones
 
@aclarke that's only after you observe it, before you observe it it isn't defined to a state!
 
user1646075
12:05 AM
@paul23 doesn't apply to gravity. unless you have discovered the secret of quantum gravity
 
user1646075
HAHA
 
Quantum gravity (QG) is a field of theoretical physics that seeks to describe the force of gravity according to the principles of quantum mechanics. The current understanding of gravity is based on Albert Einstein's general theory of relativity, which is formulated within the framework of classical physics. On the other hand, the nongravitational forces are described within the framework of quantum mechanics, a radically different formalism for describing physical phenomena based on probability. The necessity of a quantum mechanical description of gravity follows from the fact that one cann...
 
user1646075
It had better be goddamned quantum. How wierd if it's not. What if GRAVITY is god?
 
user1646075
@Borgleader aww so poignant. Sorry I laughed at your fail
 
12:10 AM
there is no gravity in the space ... so says the theory
there is ... just nothing in the space - more than 99% of it anyways
 
Ow and sheldon is proved wrong: youtube.com/watch?v=FMSmJCKaaC0
 
@aclarke Gravity is actually dwarves made out of dark matter, dragging us around by our...feet.
 
user1646075
ooo-errr: "contrary to the popular claim that quantum mechanics and general relativity are fundamentally incompatible, one can demonstrate that the structure of general relativity essentially follows inevitably from the quantum mechanics of interacting theoretical spin-2 massless particles (called gravitons)"
 
user1646075
I wonder what THAT means...
 
It means interesting points of study!
 
user1646075
12:13 AM
it means my brain hurts just reading what follows.
 
user1646075
think I'd better test some code instead. That's achievable.
 
Virus> me tiny, you big, I am attracted 2 u, it's gravity!
 
user1646075
yo momma so fat...
 
> Clev: Yes I have a sister... 2 sisters.
Jefffrey: Do you have sex with them too?
Clev: Yes.
Jefffrey: Is there someone you don't have sex with?
Clev: You.
Ouch
 
@Jefffrey what. the. fuck.
 
user1646075
12:20 AM
an AI bot?
 
Cleverbot
 
Welcome to 2008
 
well still, wtf
 
@paul23 because it's unlikely that you were born in 1923
 
12:22 AM
-.-
 
@paul23 so you were in your primes
 
facepalms
 
Still dumb as fuck.
 
Hey you guys do realize mathjax is broken on stackoverflow
?
 
whatever you do.
Don't look at my avatar.
 
12:24 AM
/me looks
 
@paul23 Did it ever work on SO?
 
It should've? How else can one explain sets and numerical algorithms?
 
user1646075
@CatPlusPlus i got better things to do...
 
@paul23 By going to math.SE
 
user1646075
@sehe umm, maybe "paul" was taken, so he threw in a few numbers? So we can surmise from this that he's a bad typist and a bad proofreader, since he failed to notice the missing 1
 
12:28 AM
@Borgleader where should questions about how to implement a difficult summation go then?
 
user1646075
@paul23 /dev/null
 
c'est?
 
Dev Null was an animated virtual reality character created in 1996 by Leo Laporte for MSNBC's computer and technology TV series, The Site. Espresso barista Dev talked with host Soledad O'Brien each weeknight in a five-minute segment. Laporte was awarded a 1997 Northern California Emmy for his nightly performances as cyber character Dev Null. == Background and history == Dev was animated in real time on million-dollar Silicon Graphics Onyx computer. Laporte generated both the voice and actions while wearing a VR motion capture suit. When O'Brien sat at the espresso bar to read email from viewers...
:P
 
user1646075
@paul23 do you UNIX?
 
Of course not
 
user1646075
12:30 AM
sigh
 
Need to get things done....
 
user1646075
haha
 
I can't even UNIX and I know about /dev/null
 
user1646075
windows then!
 
Without having to resort to a manual
for a manual
 
12:30 AM
@aclarke now let's not ruin jokes with logic, will we
 
> In some operating systems, the null device is a device file that discards all data written to it but reports that the write operation succeeded
 
@paul23 again, do not look at it
 
02:30 here - time to make diner
 
user1646075
@sehe I dunno, I thought that was a reasonable attempt at an unnecessary insult, given the limited material.
 
> All that you are is memories.
 
12:32 AM
@aclarke :D
 
You can insult an os?
 
Wow, cleverbot.
 
@paul23 you're slow
 
user1646075
even windoze has a null device. For a start: NUL: then it also supports an imaginary \dev directory including a \dev\null
 
@Jefffrey all that you were are memories
 
user1646075
12:32 AM
@paul23 he's referring to my surmising about the 23
 
What you did there. I see it.
 
I know, that's why I'm still a student at age 27
 
user1646075
@paul23 ah-ha! so you've been on the interwebs for 4 years
 
...
 
/me sighs
 
12:34 AM
/granted
 
user1646075
is it your shoe size?
 
stop it. get a life.
 
user1646075
heh
 
user1646075
YOU started it!
 
> Trigger warning: this post contains code you may wish you’d never seen. skeet
 
12:35 AM
dat [skeet](v)
 
@Borgleader I don't think so. It does on a couple of the math sites and on the Code Review site, but AFAIK nobody's ever really tried to get it onto Stack Overflow.
 
@Jefffrey I fumbled and closed my browser tab instead of pasting the url
 
Btw any of your guys know VHDL / VERILOG?
 
Ell
Not yet
 
@paul23 What are you. A chat bot?
 
user1646075
12:38 AM
@sehe ok, you continued it 2nd-last...
 
I've been wondering for the longest time, wouldn't it be possible to just ignore all kind of locks and apply what those "languages do" - simply let a function be unstable/undefined until a given point in time (which is based on the amount of clock cycles the assembly would take and hence is well known)
 
@paul23 What is VERILOG? Is it anything like Verilog?
 
It's an Hardware Description Language.
 
Cpt. Obvious alert.
 
user1646075
@paul23 well, I did design the PA-RISC 2.2 64 bit FPU, but I don't want to brag
 
12:40 AM
But I really wonder if this would be possibly, and wouldn't make computers faster, as it better resembles how the hardware works
 
Ell
@aclarke dont be ridiculous, everyone knows floats are only 32 bit. Doubles are 64 bit!
 
user1646075
@Ell not on my chipset! 32 is way too small for gaming!
 
Anyways no one (once again) experienced enough to explain why above is a terrible idea? :(
I'll bumb that question again later I guess..
 
Ell
What question? :S
 
@paul23 That's pretty much what threads do--run in parallel until/unless you synchronize them. But yes, for some highly parallel types of things you can gain a lot by running on (for one example) an FPGA instead of a conventional processor.
 
12:42 AM
Why all languages depend on "locks" etc
 
Ell
@paul you havent asked anything yet
 
user1646075
@Ell Q: "How many times did the batmobile get a flat tyre"
 
instead of just letting things overwrite memory and do whatever
 
Ell
Oh wait.
 
Untill it stabilizes after N seconds
 
Ell
12:42 AM
My bad
 
N being the longest possible path of the function
N time is also better as within a non-deterministic OS the OS itself should be counting this "time"
 
@paul23 The problem here isn't lack of the experience necessary to answer meaningful questions. It's lack of meaningful questions to answer.
 
Ouch
 
Why is above system so unmeaningful then?
 
12:46 AM
For example, what convinces you that "it" would stabilize after N seconds? What is the "longest path of the function"? Which function do you care about? Given that the halting problem remains unsolvable, you can't even be sure if a particular function will ever exit, not to mention when it'll exit.
 
Uh the language should hence not support loops unless they're put inside a virtual (which will then run non parallel to anything else) point.
 
user1646075
@paul23 can i have a toke of what you're puffing please?
 
But I could describe anything with VHDL - and VHDL DOES this very thing...
Well if you knwo VHDL I could give you an example code
 
One fundamental difference from hardware is that in hardware you don't have actual loops to deal with, only state machines. Even so, you (constantly) have to synchronize things. For example, in Verilog most code will happen in an "always @ XXX".
 
First thing that is important is that lines do no longer follow up on each other.
 
user1646075
12:49 AM
@paul23 Quantum mech does many insane things, but I'm not going to try to tunnel into the next room, or apply spin to my shoes
 
@aclarke you don't need to try. It's happening all the time
 
@JerryCoffin Indeed, but that synchronizing can be found by taking the longest computing path you expect an application to occur.
 
@paul23 VHDL has looping statements, but if you synthesize them, they result in duplicate circuits (and you can only do that for loops where the number of iterations is a constant known at compile synthesis time, not anything similar to a while loop, for example).
 
Yes but with statemachines I could still do anything.
 
user1646075
@sehe not in any way I can exploit. I wish I could tunnel my urine to the toilet when I'm watching Oprah
 
12:51 AM
So I don't "need" those loops, so why isn't there a language for computers that does this?
 
user1646075
no, bad example. better just to run there directly
 
and then takes advantage of not having to wait for CPU deadlocks/clock cycles
 
You're... WASTED.
Just channel Oprah in orbit
 
user1646075
@paul23 ever heard of original BASIC
 
@paul23 Sure. If you're willing to limit yourself to doing things the same way you can do in an HDL, then use and HDL, and synthesize it into an FPGA. Experience indicates that such designs are substantially more expensive than normal software though.
 
12:53 AM
Hmm so the language would basically be terrible to use?
 
user1646075
@paul23 ever heard of original BASIC
 
@paul23 Realistically, writing something like a browser, spreadsheet or word processor in such a language would simply be entirely unmanageable.
 
I found the way how syntax is no longer "line by line" but instead "triggered once a variable changes" quite amazing
@aclarke yes why?
 
user1646075
no loops
 
user1646075
GOTO!
 
user1646075
12:55 AM
of course, you know I'm being facetious all the way down.
 
-.-
It still goes "line by line".. I wish for a language where if I type:
a = f(b, c, d); < this line would be called the moment b, c or d change
a = f(a, b, c); <- would initiate a recursion
 
@paul23 Certainly possible to write code more or less this way as well. If I had to guess, I'd say we're likely to see things move that general direction in the future--though details remain to be seen. It was (for one example) largely how Occam worked on the Transputer though.
 
user1646075
@JerryCoffin thanks! I had a feeling i heard of a language ...
 
Simply the "line-by-line" way makes parallel computing always look awkward/pasted on. While just removing the idea that each statement is executed always after the previous makes parallelism natural.
 
user1646075
Shell has & ....
 
user1646075
1:00 AM
I'm not really contributing, am I ....
 
@paul23 I can't say I agree. You pretty much need to be able to depend on some level of sequencing (and you get sequential statements in things like VHDL too). It's generally more meaningful to have parallelism at something more like the level of functions than individual statements.
@aclarke Yup--it was pretty cool until InMOS went out of business. Wasn't very practical at the time though (clock speeds were ramping up too fast for parallel to make much sense for most people at the time).
 
user1646075
@JerryCoffin isn't that ... freaky. For a while there, clock speed were going nuts, and now they're seriously stalled. "I know, let's go sideways!"
 
@JerryCoffin Hmm sure but one could go something hybrid then, but putting the basic core at parallel statements (like Occam afaik?) would allow the compiler to "generate threads" and remove that from the user to think about.
 
user1646075
The strangest thing, however, is how it takes the same length of time to boot a machine, if not worse...
 
@paul23 Sure--there have been some languages at least a little like that. Erlang and a number of "Actor-based" languages, for example.
 
1:09 AM
Don't know of any that don't depend on a VM (which then often abstracts away to make it all sequential) though.
 
@aclarke Yup--the only real improvement there is booting (a lot) less often. A whole lot of boot time hasn't been CPU bound for years though.
 
Nowadays boot sector is no longer ROM I think?
 
It hasn't been ROM for decades
 
user1646075
@JerryCoffin true enough. But there's also a shit-load more services to wade through, often with connectivity-inspired waits deliberately coded in.
 
user1646075
@CatPlusPlus front switches on mine, dunno about yours.
 
1:11 AM
Press the Turbo button for faster boot
 
user1646075
heh
 
@paul23 Certainly a lot that use VMs, anyway. Largely (IMO) because Actor model has remained primarily an academic thing, so most cared more about its theoretical model than how it related to actual hardware.
 
user1646075
or off so your pacman runs around the maze at the same speed!
 
VMs are great we need more VMs
 
@CatPlusPlus actually the PC would be faster with the Turbo button off
 
1:14 AM
@aclarke My Pacman maintains a properly sedate speed at all button settings. Well, did until my CPU died anyway. Now he's gone into hibernation until FedEx comes through (probably Monday or so, but given how close I am to Newegg, maybe a bit sooner).
 
Whatever
 
But that's the only thing I remember from that lecture it had something to do with psychology according to my prof...
 
Wait what
 
user1646075
I heard it was there partially so that timing-based code designed for 4.77 MHz (was that the number?) 8088 code could run at the same timing rate - ie games. Also marketing.
 
yes
 
user1646075
1:16 AM
@paul23 allusion to marketing probably
 
to slow it down to 3.5 MHz
 
user1646075
but carefully crafted timing loops.
 
user1646075
i thought the original IBM PC and it's many copies were 4.77 but could be wrong
 
Well I´m not sure about numbers
 
@aclarke You're correct, they ran at 4.77 MHz.
 
user1646075
1:16 AM
newer chips running at a breathless 6Mhz etc were making pacman too difficult
 
ah so they slowed from 6 to 4.77 :P
 
user1646075
yup!
 
user1646075
Leisure Suit Larry could be run on turbo...
 
Makes me wonder: does the modern C++ stl library actually "work" reasonably fast if one would compile a small program with it?
for 6 Mhz pcs
 
@aclarke In many cases, from 6 down to something like 3.75 MHz--they had to run a bit slower to make up for the fact that they'd moved from an 8088 to a 286.
 
user1646075
1:18 AM
heh - probably!
 
user1646075
or they could have inserted mode switches...
 
You know how expensive designing a CPU was back then?
 
user1646075
@paul23 ummmm, does it work on the myriad of teeny embedded chips still in existence/
 
Aren't those chips all like 100MHz?
 
user1646075
i hear the Z80 core is still popular in $2 toys
 
user1646075
1:20 AM
my 4 year old's light sabre is apparently running a Z80-like chip at 1mhz or something
 
not a purpose build chip?
 
user1646075
so no, STL probably no.....
 
user1646075
laughably small die now.
 
user1646075
why bother?
 
It's like 1 thing it has to do?
like a series of 100 gates would be enough?
 
1:21 AM
@paul23 Speed wouldn't be the major problem. The big problem would be that they're largely designed to favor CPU time over memory usage. Good decision with machines that have 8+ GB, but wouldn't work so well in the 500 KB (or so) left after loading MS-DOS and a few device drivers (not to mention dealing with 64K segments).
 
user1646075
@paul23 beeping is lots of things - cycling an IO line!
 
user1646075
@paul23 once again, why bother when you can get a z80 core for 20¢
 
Less power abuse
 
user1646075
make that 3¢ probably
 
user1646075
why bother?
 
1:22 AM
More environmentally friendly? It's good marketing
I just heard we're going to reduce(!) power usage by 40% in 2030, and by 2040 all left over power (50% of what we currently use in europe) should be from green energy.
 
user1646075
@paul23 does 'we' include Australia? Are you predicting a change in government party?
 
Uh we is the EU
 
user1646075
oh well. At least we have a shit-load of brown coal...
 
A huge debate has just ended a few hours ago about these
 
user1646075
should make a pyre of it on parliament house.
 
1:29 AM
Also we're making sure to no longer depend on russian gas
 
user1646075
canny
 
user1646075
nukular?
 
user1646075
although that's more 'lightly glowing blue' energy
 
@aclarke Last time I looked, low-end microcontrollers were still like 50-65¢, even in large quantities. I suppose some are probably a little cheaper than that, but 3¢ seems pretty unlikely (at least for most).
 
Being an aerospace engineer I am always interested in this: green energy (wind mills) is a booming business I might find work in when I finish my education in 2-3 years.
 
user1646075
1:30 AM
@JerryCoffin ok - still cheaper than designing a gate array for a stupid toy
 
"I wish for a language where if I type: a = f(b,c,d); < this line would be called the moment b, c, or d change" <- s/a/A1/. Now, spreadsheet?
 
@aclarke Depends on quantity you plan to sell. Most I've looked at seem to be an ASIC with a processor core and most peripherals integrated onto a single die.
But yes, designing hardware for the entire thing is generally pointless unless your market is truly immense.
 
user1646075
all proudly brought to you by the space program
 
user1646075
so that's full-circle really. Apollo 13, meet the toy light sabre. If you had it's processing power back then...
 
@aclarke But we did have its processing power back then. It just cost 3.5 million dollars, weighed 2.75 tons and consumed a few kilowatts of electricity (plus another kilowatt for the air conditioning).
 
user1646075
1:38 AM
don't forget the cost of the lab coats, pocket protectors and slide rules
 
@aclarke Lab rats supplied their own pocket protectors (and slide rules, in most cases).
 
user1646075
@JerryCoffin hmmm - I guess they'd personalise them with careful waxing and finely shaving the sliders just right
 
Last time I was home, I was sorting through old junk and ran across my old (ancient) Post Versalog II.
 
user1646075
ooo-err! you can talk to my daddy! He had a slide rule. :=))
 
user1646075
i just remembered, by granddad bought me a mechanical calculator when I was 8 or something. It used a small steel rod to push sliders around, and it really did maths including multiplication. It got nicked at school.
 
1:42 AM
@aclarke Nah. You collected them. A friend of mine could extol at length the various advantages and disadvantages of Post vs. Pickets, for example.
I only had a couple of them, and those mostly because I was a bit...strange. Most kids my age just used calculators, though those only a few years older (my older brothers for example) were taught how to use slide rules in school. Most books I used still sort of assumed you'd use a slide rule, but we kind of skipped over those parts.
 
Ell
I learned to multiply with a slide rule
 
user1646075
I'm trying to track down that mechanical calc but not having any luck. It took me a long time to get over it's loss.
 
@aclarke s/it's/its/
[Pedant alert]
 
user1646075
dang
 
@aclarke Not many of them left. Those desk calculators had enough steel to build a small car...
 
user1646075
1:49 AM
this thing was only about 6 mm thick, maybe 150mm long, and maybe 60mm high. There were 4 or 5 slider slots, and a 3mm rod with a pointy tip was used to poke inside at a particular number, slide the mechanism, and the result would show on another slider.
 
user1646075
so nothing like a big clunky desk thing
 
@aclarke Ah, okay. I was thinking of ones like this.
 
user1646075
yeah nahhhh. Still looking, but not holding out much hope.
 
Or, probably the most common one, the Monroe.
 
Ell
My maths teacher has a wind up mechanical calculator
 
user1646075
1:57 AM
hmmm - maybe the simple thing couldn't multiply. maybe that was algorithmic - that Monroe mentions using a counter of how many times you cranked the handle. That sounds familiar
 
user1646075
mehhh - Nostalgia ain't what it used to be. No luck, but I guess it was along the lines of this: americanhistory.si.edu/collections/search/object/nmah_690263
 
That's similar to the one I was looking at: vintagecalculators.com/html/exactus.html
 
user1646075
oh that would have been a boon for pounds, shilling, pence.
 
user1646075
mine had a bright red paint job, and the sliders dominated the full length. It was probably 4 digit having seen these others.
 
2:20 AM
@aclarke Yes--the old UK monetary system almost certainly increased the market for calculators.
 
user1646075
@JerryCoffin I'm sure the nerd factor (and avoidance thereof) was relevant in the 50's too
 
In this shitty world, the only way to win is to be more shitty & I am willing to be as shitty as I need to be to get things completed!
 
user1646075
well sheeey't!
 
good thing is that you could be very shitty, but if you are dumb, there is just no way you could win unless you are very lucky
 
user1646075
... or persistent or lacking care factor
 
2:37 AM
Oh, they care, two ute/van cut in front of me when they should not. But I guess some labourers (real ones not my type of hobby labourer) have no manners.
I gave way to both, didn't waste much, if any time
Guess dumb shitty people are just dumb
p.s. I love to whine/whinge
makes me feel happier <3
 
user1646075
learn the PIT manoeuvre.
 
Oo, trust me, I am an awesome driver :p
I am also a shameless self promoter >_<
 
user1646075
race you one day. A sad little pratt on P's in a plastic-coated Civic tried to keep up with me today. So much fun
 
user1646075
that wasn't you, was it, around Parramatta?
 
I am not around Parramatta
 
user1646075
2:46 AM
it's not worth winding up tradies in their Toyota hilux tray-tops. They'll end up throwing bolts and rivets at you when they finally catch up at the next lights
 
user1646075
ffs have you visited Carsguide lately? it took about 2 minutes to load, and now 40% of my screen is dominated by a horrendously slow and laggy google map of where the stoopit cars are. As if I need map to know that a car in Perth is that far away. Sheesh. Not even an option to get rid of the bloody thing.
 
user1646075
even worse, it looks like a frikken windows 8 in tablet mode. ewwwwwwwwwwwww
 
This Dallas Buyers Club vs users who illegal downloaded them case would be interesting to watch
pity that movie was never appealing to me, otherwise I could have illegally downloaded it
 
user1646075
unlike the movie no doubt
 
3:02 AM
tens of years possibly
the court case is going to drag on for years
wondering whether this is some kind of publicity stunt for the movie
 
user1646075
or a financial windfall for the lawyers
 
I was thinking about that ...
the only winner in this kind of cases would be the lawyers
 
user1646075
definitely. They will not be in the red over this.
 
unless the movie company bankrupt & owes them millions in the fees
$55 mil profit for the movie
I would start counting now ...
they have a lot of cases opening, that will burn out money really fast
unless they get heavy discount rate or work for free unless won
 
user1646075
all billed and payed monthly
 
3:08 AM
Oo, lol
so $55 mil would last what? 2 years?
2 years is not long in court cases like this
let's see who runs out of money first
 
user1646075
dunno. the stunt theory sounds good. Then again, they'll probably wind back to a Junior during the quiet periods
 
@StackedCrooked ow
 
It's an old test to see how serialized json grows when nested.
It's amazing how fast it grows.
percent-encoding would probably be much more efficient
 
user1646075
cancers will do that
 
3:21 AM
Because percent encoding removes the offending character while escaping prepends a \ to it.
Percent encoding is really nice.
 
3:50 AM
However, it does not generate a pattern which can be compressed with RLE.
 
user1646075
what if you look for longer lengths to run? eg '25'
 
user1646075
too much hard work?
 
yeah, don't want to code that :P
 
user1646075
if you know you'll be dealing with this particular case it maybe worth the special case checking for 2...
 
Btw, I'm just playing. I'm not trying to solve a real problem here :)
 
user1646075
3:59 AM
excellent
 

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