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10:00 PM
Oh cool, I've been tasked with server migration and nobody mentioned 3 Wordpress sites that are lingering around here.
 
@Xeo Betcha it'll be easier to accept than making a pure keyword.
 
Xeo
Sure
 
@not-rightfold I've never even thought about that.
 
Xeo
I'd have pure as a contextual keyword anyways.
@CatPlusPlus Legacy n shit :/
 
@MooingDuck regular-expression-search/haocppnjhmfiemhgfdgockbipphbfibe that's somehow a very appropriate pretty-url
 
Xeo
10:01 PM
int f(int, int) pure;
 
"You must restart your computer to apply these changes."
 
Ell
I wonder if you could tag functions that hold arbitrary invariants
 
Of course...
 
mmm?
 
@Xeo thinking about it now, we could do int f(int, int) const; maybe
 
10:02 PM
sometimes I wonder how I got to be so amazing
 
Lol.
 
Xeo
@Rapptz Member functions?
 
I'm watching a video of Notch writing a game for ludumdare from a livestreaming he did. Do any of you think livestreamings of people making software and writing code would be successful? a twitch of programmers? xD
 
that already exists with member functions
 
oh excellent, VS 2012 can no longer step over a function that calls debugBreak. Friggin microsoft.
 
10:02 PM
@Xeo int f(int, int) const const!
 
Xeo
@Rapptz Yes, that's the problem.
 
Yeah true.
 
@Rapptz no....
 
For double constness.
 
@MooingDuck Shh.
 
user1804599
10:03 PM
[[pure]]
 
user1804599
Or int f const(int, int) const! :D
 
@not-rightfold ...
@not-rightfold int* f const(13); becomes ambiguous....
 
const int const(const int* const, const int) const
Constipation.
 
user1804599
const { // everything in here is const!
    int f(int, int);
}
 
user1804599
Or you know just use D or Haskell.
 
10:06 PM
VS2012 has a spell checker and now I'm suddenly ashamed of all my code :(
 
user1804599
@MooingDuck Good. You should be ashamed of all that code.
 
user1804599
Your code is bad and you should feel bad.
 
code isn't that bad. But the spelling... red underlines EVERYWHERE :(
 
Xeo
Spell checker for code seems increadibly useless.
 
@Xeo it only spell checks comments, but point stands
 
user1804599
10:10 PM
You need comments? Your code is bad and you should feel bad.
 
@not-rightfold you think you don't need comments? Your code is bad and you should feel bad.
 
user1804599
My code is good and I feel good.
 
Xeo
 
so... it seems the ungodly borrowing noise we could here coming form the wall was a tiny spider... like 3 or 4 mm cross
@not-rightfold probably isn't, probably shouldn't
 
This doesn't answer the question about the relationship between C and C++ and instead plugs another language. — Brian Neal Jan 1 '11 at 19:20
 
10:15 PM
my code is bad and I'm okay with it
 
It's almost like you guys
 
Nobody wants to talk about C or C++.
 
A smart non programmer would ask now "is this a discussion about who has it longer?"
 
Xeo
I want to talk about C++. :(
 
Discussions about long pointers lol
 
10:17 PM
@Xeo It's okay, sometimes I do too
 
I don't understand this
 
@Xeo or do you just want to talk about programming, and C++ is what you know best?
 
quoting wikipedia: "When the callee cleans the arguments from the stack it needs to be known at compile time how many bytes the stack needs to be adjusted. Therefore, these calling conventions are not compatible with variable argument lists, e.g. printf()."
can't you just set the stack pointer to the base pointer?
 
@CatPlusPlus We want to talk about Dragons.
 
@nightcracker Me neither. Willingly talking about C++?
Come on.
 
10:19 PM
Herbs most recent GOTW can't be solved because moving the private members will make the private-members-access-code fail compile
 
@nightcracker no, that doesn't clean up the arguments.
 
so one cannot move around private members without keeping the private accessing code compile
 
I mean the "previous" base pointer (so 0(%ebp))
 
@nightcracker There might be no base pointer.
 
@CatPlusPlus assuming there is, of course
 
Ell
10:20 PM
Lol I just found an app called "sex". "No special permissions required"
 
@nightcracker that would erase the local variables used by the callee wouldn't it?
 
@MooingDuck ahh of course - this picture put me off
 
@TonyTheLion Fighting dragons and C++ are both equally enjoyable.
 
it does not show the "old" local variables
 
@Ell sounds like wanking it
 
10:21 PM
@nightcracker You can't assume that.
 
@CatPlusPlus Yes, yes I can
 
That'd make a calling convention that can't be used with a very common optimisation.
 
@CatPlusPlus he's misusing the word "assuming" there. He can do what he's doing in this case.
 
And bugs. And aliens.
 
anyone ever set up a cron on UNIX?
 
10:22 PM
yeah, that
 
@MooingDuck I don't know what you're saying.
 
@CatPlusPlus he's only reasoning for a subset of the possible cases, he's not assuming that the subset is the entirety of all cases
I wish I could words.
 
@MooingDuck so callee-cleanup is possible with varargs if you make a calling convention that also passes the number of arguments (in bytes) passed?
 
I'm saying "can't assume" from a call conv designer standpoint.
 
@nightcracker ....why would you do that.
@CatPlusPlus that is correct. But he wasn't actually assuming anything
 
10:25 PM
@nightcracker Yes. That'd burn a register, though.
Probably.
Let's talk about programming where machine doesn't exist.
 
@MooingDuck I may or may not be fiddling around with calling conventions for educational purposes for an programming language I'm designing for educational purposes. Educational.
 
@nightcracker for varargs you might want caller cleanup instead of callee cleanup
 
Beh, write a VM.
 
I hate VM's
 
Too bad.
 
10:28 PM
what we really need is a good architecture
 
VM. :v
 
@CatPlusPlus I linked this before, but not sure whether you saw it - youtube.com/watch?v=QGw-cy0ylCc
 
@nightcracker he's a wizard!
 
@nightcracker While that was an interesting video. We won't see this in production before another 10 years (if ever) IMO
 
@Borgleader probably - I'm definitely following progress on it though
 
10:30 PM
30 seconds, I'm already bored.
 
@Borgleader it seems very clean (though I'm very interested in seeing how they hide cache miss/branch mispredict latencies)
@CatPlusPlus skip to 20:00
 
The rest is so slow that latency is unnoticeable. :v
 
@nightcracker dont bother, cat gets bored quite easily
 
0
Q: How to mix bash script with python script?

PYTHON TERMINALWhat happens if i have a python script.. #!/usr/bin/env python with open('server_info') as f: a, b = f a, b = a.strip(), b.strip() but right below it, i have a xdotool commands.. a=`xdotool search --name "ooo"` if [[ "$a" ]]; then xdotool windowactivate --sync $a fi do i add ...

 
if(!ball_of_string) return boring;
2
 
10:32 PM
@Borgleader ^ It's him again!
 
@CatPlusPlus the thing about this architecture is that it is in-order with fixed latencies - which is necessary because values reside at different locations when more instructions finish their operations
 
@Borgleader I was totally just thinking that
 
@CatPlusPlus for example when an add operation complete it pushes it's result on the top of the stack, moving other values down
 
@sehe Well at least the tags seem correct this time around
 
@nightcracker So it's a run-of-the-mill stack machine that's very difficult to program for because registers are way more intuitive and substantially faster.
 
10:34 PM
@Borgleader For some values of "correct"
 
@DeadMG more intuitive yes, faster no
@DeadMG and compilers are perfectly capable of handling the "complexity" of a stack machine
 
@sehe well its a lot better than tagging a window coordinate question with php/mysql
 
well, that's true, a compiler could probably handle it, but the compiler will be buggier as a result.
 
Uh what
 
@DeadMG if you actually watch 0:00 - 20:00 you'll see why registers are slow/require a lot of area and energy of the chip
 
10:35 PM
Many VMs are stack machines.
 
@nightcracker Well, considering that practically every operation the chip does goes through the registers, then it's really no surprise that they're a big part of the chip.
 
Ell
@MooingDuck that's the first thing I noticed :P
 
@DeadMG and the intuitivity ends when you actually start getting into calling conventions and who has to save register while this system can simply swap stacks
 
@nightcracker There's nothing stopping an x86 calling convention from saving all the registers and making it simple and intuitive. It's just that nobody does that because slow.
 
@DeadMG which is the exact problem: there is a huge amount of producers/consumers within the chip that require linking together
 
10:37 PM
That only means stack operations on x86 are slow.
 
@CatPlusPlus A stack operation is almost certainly only 1 cycle a pop.
 
@DeadMG if you haven't already I'd strongly suggest you to watch the entire video before fanboying x86
 
I have no fanboyism for x86, it's a terrible architecture.
and future x86 machines will undoubtedly be crippled by having to support all the backwards compatibility stuff.
 
@DeadMG eventually they'll make a break I'm sure. They tried with Itanium, they'll try again.
 
@DeadMG with registers you also have the problem of having different integer/floating point registers
 
Ell
10:38 PM
What makes x86 bad? or any architecture bad?
 
x86 is a register architecture that has almost no registers.
 
@Ell slowness that could've been prevented - nonintuivity - complexity
 
@Ell some operations are slower in hardware than in software
 
Ell
what :3
how is that even possible >.<
 
@nightcracker Again, that's only true because x86 does it that way, and AFAIK the only reason it's done that way is historical. There's no reason why a future register machine could not share registers between regular FP (not SSE stuff obviously) and integers.
 
10:39 PM
@Ell bad architecture
 
Lets ask bartek to ask his bosses why they dont make a new one :P
trolololo
 
Because it's not profitable.
 
in fact, you could author a compiler that uses the SSE units for all integer and floating-point operations, and only uses the general registers for stuff like pointers
I think.
 
@CatPlusPlus well if it owns the competition even more and wins them the market, it would be. no?
 
@DeadMG watch the video. damnit.
 
10:42 PM
oh thats right, they already own the market... sorry amd
 
@Ell Originally, too few registers was a big problem. Worse, many registers had specific purposes, so a value often had to be in one of only a couple registers to be put to a specific use.
 
It's not possible to get x86 out of desktop market. At least not currently.
 
Ell
I don't see the issue with porting programmes to different architectures unless they are written in assembly
 
@Ell distribution to stupid people
 
I think the first victim to this mill architecture would be ARM if anything
 
10:43 PM
@Ell Because C++.
 
x86 is too deeply enrooted in the current toolchains to simply get replaced
 
You write low-level code, you get low-level worries.
 
@Ell The other big barrier is being written for an OS that's not available on the target architecture.
 
@Ell C++ and C are just assemblers with some syntactical sugar and pre-written functions
 
Ell
Oh of course, it depends on an os >.<
@nightcracker I disagree :P
 
10:44 PM
C++ exposes too much of the underlying architecture.
 
@Ell how do you disagree?
 
Ell
@CatPlusPlus what like?
 
@CatPlusPlus example?
 
@PYTHONTERMINAL well apparently not. I cannot escape the hunch that you might be the same as user2694706 here, here, user user2694283 here, and user269406 in the (now-deleted) question here. Note that both the users there were freshly created, now-deleted even on the questions that aren't. — sehe 9 secs ago
/cc @Borgleader ^
 
Ell
@nightcracker when you write c++ and c you don't write to a particular architecture, in assembly you do
and a compiler does a lot more than an assembler (at least I thought)
 
10:45 PM
@ell think again
 
@nightcracker it totally does
 
@Borgleader Endianness, alignment, bitness.
 
@sehe You had more patience then me in tracking them down xD have a comment upboat
 
@ell the syntactical sugar is making the assembly "portable"
 
user1804599
I can't find Instant Onanizer lyrics.
 
10:46 PM
C doesn't expose all of the capabilities of the underlying architecture either (SSE, etc) (unless you use intrinsics)
 
@nightcracker There's a lot more than syntactic sugar. C and C++ don't force you to work directly with registers at all, which is substantially different from assembly language.
 
@JerryCoffin that's definitely true
 
@CatPlusPlus Isn't endianness only a problem in file IO? As for bitness you mean nb of bits in a byte? And finally I don't see how alignment is relevant to CPU arch. mind explaining?
 
x86 is incredibly lenient when it comes to misaligned access.
 
user1804599
Endianness is a problem when doing serialization and deserialiation.
 
user1804599
10:47 PM
Not specifically file I/O.
 
On many architectures misaligned access is a hard error.
 
user1804599
As it should be.
 
C abstracts away the details of handling the stack/registers and all of the machine stuff - but in the end you still have a high level assembly language with some predefined functions
 
Ell
This video is boring :(
I thought it would be talking about architecture
 
@Ell write some more x86 then be excited about the simplicity of this (how far are you into the video?)
 
Ell
10:49 PM
@nightcracker 13 minutes
 
@not-rightfold normative bastard
 
@Ell skip to 20:00
 
@nightcracker Arguably true -- but without a specific definition of what does or doesn't constitute assembly language, the same could be said of Lisp, Haskell, Java, etc.
 
user1804599
@sehe ?
 
user1804599
Most things should be hard errors.
 
user1804599
10:49 PM
Bad alignment = instantly kill program.
 
I imagine abstracting these issues (bitness, endianness, alignment) be a performance cost?
 
s/errors//?
 
Let's go shoppin'.
 
@not-rightfold I think it is on PS3
 
@Ell the first 20 minutes are just explaining why traditional architectures are costly
 
10:50 PM
I want VMs everywhere always.
VM everything.
 
@not-rightfold Well, you know, the alignment is simply not a requirement. So it should not be an error. It's harmful for performance. Yeah. Different story
 
VM your language.
VM your dog.
 
@CatPlusPlus "One VM To Rule Them All"?!
 
user1804599
@sehe It should be a requirement.
 
Meh. It is. On some archs
 
user1804599
10:51 PM
It should be on x86-64.
 
VI-RTU-A-LISE
 
user1804599
Complicated piece of shit.
 
user1804599
@sehe No.
 
@CatPlusPlus but
@CatPlusPlus what if someone writes a CPU for your VM
@CatPlusPlus then you'd have to virtualise that
 
Virtualise everything.
No physical machines.
 
Ell
10:52 PM
Why don't you just imagine everything.
Quit your job, stop programming
then just imagine you have a good life <3
 
cause it ain't gonna feed itself
 
user1804599
Go to the Netherlands.
Have a foreign name ("Mohammed" or "Fatima" is best).
Get free money from the government.
 
Ell
also, why should I care about alignment :O
 
@not-rightfold lol
@not-rightfold Come on. Drop the blinders
@PYTHONTERMINAL That's okay. You'd get more answers easier if you didn't behave in this way. Also, I seriously doubt you are getting the answers you need. You might be getting "some" answers you seeksehe 56 secs ago
 
Sigh. Internet explorer refuses to die.
 
10:54 PM
ffs, is EVERYONE in this chat dutch?
 
user1804599
@nightcracker Dat heb jij heel goed gezien.
 
@CatPlusPlus Liegbeest!
 
user1804599
Everyone here is either Dutch, German, Polish, English or irrelevant.
 
I'm no beast.
 
10:55 PM
Katten zijn leugenaars
 
Woah, Google's first result for "Meta" is now [M.SO]
 
No it's not.
 
3rd for me
 
user1804599
 
not even on the first page for me
 
10:56 PM
[meta-so]
 
user1804599
 
 
http://ʬʬʬ.google.com
 
user1804599
@sehe Results are personalized.
 
Xeo
10:57 PM
3rd for me
 
So the question is, why are you searching for meta.so so often.
 
user1804599
 
user1804599
Click the globe.
 
@CatPlusPlus because I carn't find it :)
 
Be the globe.
(Also turn off search history)
 
10:58 PM
@CatPlusPlus I like search history.
@not-rightfold Oh - wow. Google is so complicated :( <troll/>
@sehe, there is no way to find out who is behaving irrationally, sometimes a whole galaxy can be "wrong" we are floating inside of "void" . you can not define behaviour — PYTHON TERMINAL 2 mins ago
 
user1804599
@CatPlusPlus No, it's great.
 
^ that guy
 
that second answer also has tons of info, that will be going into my notes. — PYTHON TERMINAL 13 secs ago
You're in my notes now.
 
user1804599
@sehe haha that username.
 
user1804599
SEHE
RIGHTFOLD
CAT PLUS PLUS
 

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