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@TonyTheLion oooh, so simple you wonder why it took so long to think of
 
Cool.
 
"nothing more than guidelines" that's right isn't it, opposed the using "then"
 
Xeo
ya
 
12:21 PM
"consistent manor" <- is that the big house? or the word I am actually after?
 
manure
 
Xeo
Looking for "manner"?
 
@thecoshman thats the big house afaik
 
@sehe oooh no, I've made that shit mistake before!
@Xeo I think so :P
 
Ell
Morning
 
12:29 PM
@thecoshman ever tried to BBQ on one of those hiking stoves?
@Manish hey
 
@Telkitty猫咪咪 yes... not whilst hiking I will admit.
 
Ell
I've never tried a BBQ with one
Heating up tinned goods thiugh
 
@thecoshman really?
 
@Telkitty猫咪咪 which part? that I have used one, or that I haven't whilst hiking?
 
you used one for BBQing meat
 
12:43 PM
soo... anybody care to 'review' these two posts. Just things like spelling, grammar, talking out my arse, not citing things that really should be.
@Telkitty猫咪咪 yeah... sausages or burgers or some sort like that IIRC, would have ben like 10 years ago, you know, when life was still fun and stuff
 
Can a vector<T> hold an incomplete type?
 
@TonyTheLion what do you mean exactly?
 
As in, can you have a vector member of a class that contains that class itself?
class foo { std::vector<foo> f; }; like this
 
iirc no, all std containers require types to be complete at the point where they're declared (even the ones that could be implemented without requiring this)
 
If you need this, check out Boost.Container
 
Xeo
12:54 PM
@TonyTheLion Officially, no
 
k thx
 
Ell
Does c++'s grammer being context sensitive give any advantages?
Hmm there might be a question on it
 
@TonyTheLion this guy <3
 
1:11 PM
Yay 25k!!
 
gratz
 
I hit 6.8k yesterday =.=;
 
I've siezed up at around 11.8k. Can't be bothered to try too hard now I can see the deleted questions.
 
1:13 PM
I can't so I'm still somewhat motivated :3
 
Yea
I thought I'd quit at 20k
 
I wish this was 2009 so I could answer a train track question though =/
 
but on occasion I'll answer a few questions
 
then i could fkn retire
 
and slowly my rep creeps up
 
Xeo
1:28 PM
I got gold badges for C++, C++11 and Templates. Can't see myself really answering questions anymore.
 
lately i look at questions and all i see is "shit, shit, shit, fuck its about qt, shit, qt again, shit, opencv" T_T
 
@TonyTheLion Guns don't kill people. Bullets do.
 
@jalf The Standard says so. Some implementations are more lax- MSVC, I know for sure is one.
@Ell The advantage (back in 1972) is that the compiler only needed to do one pass over each TU to compile the program.
 
ohhh puppy
hai
 
Xeo
1:34 PM
@Borgleader You need to filter for the right tags. :P
 
@Xeo What do you filter for? I have [c++] or [c++11] or [haskell]
 
Xeo
"[c++11][or][c++][templates][or][c++1y]"
Never search for raw
 
so it shows you no other questions?
 
hi tony
 
Xeo
1:36 PM
@TonyTheLion Yep
 
ah, you know
stomachpocalypse
 
unemployment
all the good stuff
 
Ugh
Have you made some more effort on the employment thing lately?
Or have you lost all hope?
 
Xeo
231
Q: Is C++ context-free or context-sensitive?

FredOverflowI often hear claims that C++ is a context-sensitive language. Take the following example: a b(c); Is this a variable definition or a function declaration? That depends on the meaning of the symbol c. If c is a variable, then a b(c); defines a variable named b of type a. It is directly initiali...

 
1:38 PM
@Xeo [c++1y] increases the question counter by 1, so it's useless. Adding [templates] adds like 2k questions but that's not many considering the total of 239k
 
Xeo
@Ell @DeadMG might be an interesting read for you
 
@Xeo I'm pretty sure that I already know almost everything there is to know about that topic. I think I answered that question too
 
raw c++ are the easiest to answer though =/
 
Xeo
If I remove [or][c++1y] I'm losing a lot more questions than 1
 
yeah because you have [c++][templates], i have [c++]
 
Xeo
1:39 PM
31 to be exact.
hm
So that means there's one question that is not tagged
Found and fixed
@Borgleader If you only filter for , you'll also get all the web stuff
That's why I have [c++][templates] together
 
@TonyTheLion Not exactly, but I'm not gonna pretend that I don't avoid applying for jobs. It's just so depressing.
 
Yeah but that's a little restrictive =/ the are on rare occasions good questions with only [c++]
 
Xeo
Too much crap for the little gold there is in it
 
@DeadMG Yea. I wish I could help you more.
 
@DeadMG I have work, but it would cause you to commit suicide immediately.
 
1:43 PM
ah, well
with the stomachpocalypse too, it's all a little too much for me, really.
 
Are there any benefits to allowing aliasing?
 
lol dead just waiting for lion to become senior and offers him a position as junior xD
 
@DeadMG Yeah:( I have a freezerpocalypse, but that's easily, and quickly, fixed by trip to Tesco/Iceland.
 
@DeadMG I can definitely empathize with you on the subject of pain. I know that feeling when it all becomes too much all too damn well.
 
well, I certainly can't imagine what it must be like to be you.
I mean, I know that gallstones are usually considered to be pretty high on the pain scale
 
1:47 PM
@Borgleader you avoid breaking code which relies on it?
 
but probably not as much as your feet
 
@jalf No I mean, let's say language A forbids aliasing, and language B permits it. What are the advantages of permitting aliasing?
What do you gain?
 
@Ell The main advantage of C++ being hard to parse is that you can make money by selling a frontend..
 
@Borgleader Pretty much nothing, from a non-compatibility standpoint, and assuming A has some tools that can do the same in a more limited way. Aliasing is often necessary in the implementation of stuff that does manual shit with memory, but in C and C++ it's often abused for just binary casting.
 
The last time I had any serious pain was during a throat/bronchial infection. That complaint cleared up after a few days, but I had coughed so much that I had done something nastly to intercostal/diaphragm muscles. It was painful to breathe for a week. Don't wanna do that again.
 
1:51 PM
@Borgleader Flexibility. Forbidding aliasing in general means making the code substantially less flexible for the sake of a (usually fairly minor) optimization.
 
@WouterHuysentruit I have long voted to reopen :) A power failure killed my own attempt. I might rewrite it if it gets reopened — sehe 25 mins ago
^ anyone care to help?
 
@Borgleader A bit of convenience, really. Makes it easier to do things you probably shouldn't be doing.
 
@DeadMG I see, thanks /cc @JerryCoffin I'm asking because I'm taking notes for on language features I want, or should avoid in case I revive my language project. And I'd just read an answer on "Why is fortran faster than c" which mentioned aliasing.
 
But most languages do just fine without it
 
0
Q: How to solve two way communication in Socket?

cynric4sureI have a C++ Server running in Unix, and a C# UI application running in Windows. I used socket to communicate between server and client. It has been performing very good. But now, I have a request need to be sent from client side to Server side. And this request need to be processed and return s...

dat tag fest
 
1:55 PM
@Borgleader That kind of thing is really for the very small, very hardcore loops which frankly you could just write in FORTRAN yourself if you really needed the speed.
I mean, the simple fact is that you probably shouldn't be doing the things that strict aliasing forbids anyway.
 
So the gist of it is, strict aliasing is good because it keeps you from doing shit you shouldn't be doing and may give you extra speed as a bonus ?
 
@Borgleader Not exactly. Strict aliasing doesn't keep you from doing anything
It just means the code will misbehave if you do it
 
@TonyTheLion Why not? I'm pretty sure the only special operator is operator=.
 
@DeadMG Wait a sec -- are we talking about aliasing or the C99 "strict aliasing" stuff which is almost (but not quite) completely different?
 
1:57 PM
If you want to forbid aliasing, build it into the type system so that you have no way to write code which compiles while causing aliasing
 
@jalf That's what I would do if i forbid it
 
@JerryCoffin Well, Borgleader didn't actually specify, but I'm talking about the C++ strict aliasing stuff, since I don't know what the C99 stuff is.
 
@DeadMG I don't know, seems kind of odd to have a virtual operator(). Probably just me.
 
@TonyTheLion Well, most objects that overload operator() are functors used to parameterize algorithms or containers, and those are often taken by value, so the whole inheritance dealie doesn't make a large amount of sense in that context.
 
but yeah, it depends on what exactly is meant by aliasing
 
1:58 PM
right
 
@TonyTheLion Yeah - I considered answering it, but it seemed that doing so would just get into a slogging-match as the OP hits more problems, so I passed. it's a bit broad, anyway. Maybe close?
 
@jalf I don't really see how this is possible.
 
@MartinJames I didn't even read the question. I just noticed those tags being a bit off
 
@DeadMG Since he only talked about "aliasing", that's what I was talking about.
 
@TonyTheLion Good plan!
 
1:59 PM
if you want to implement, say, optional<T>, there's kind of a need for aliasing between char* and T* here. And I'm not really seeing how the compiler is gonna prove or not that you only ever aliased it as a T*. That's also gonna get a lot messier than variant.
@JerryCoffin OK, so we are on the same page discussing the same thing, then. Good to know.
 
161
A: Is Fortran faster than C?

Nils PipenbrinckThe languages have similar feature-set. The performance difference comes from the fact that fortran says aliasing is not allowed. Any code that has aliasing is not valid fortran but it is up to the programmer and not the compiler to detect these errors. Thus fortran compilers ignore possible alia...

 
close pls
 
I was referring to this ^
 
@jalf Specifically, the aliasing that Fortran eliminates has nearly no relationship to the "strict aliasing" rules introduced in C99 and copied (more or less) in C++11.
 
2:01 PM
@Borgleader That has nothing to do with aliasing as we know it in C++.
the example shows aliasing between two pointer arguments to a function which have the same type.
strict aliasing is about banning aliasing between different types.
 
@JerryCoffin Well, I'm not an expert on fortran, but in Fortran you are guaranteed that two parameters, regardless of type, will not alias, right?
Whereas C-style strict aliasing only deals with objects of different types
just making sure I have the right idea here :)
 
@jalf IIRC, it's not absolutely guaranteed all the time, but to get aliasing you have to do things the compiler can easily detect. But yeah, I think you have the right idea.
 
63
Q: Recent Mass Football Spam

Bad WolfIs something wrong with StackOverflow's spam filter? Recently there have been huge numbers of spam topics related to football streaming. They have all been spam flagged and deleted but there are more getting posted all the time, I just flagged another 6 or so a few minutes ago. This has been goin...

lol
 
> Mr Lube
lol
 
2:08 PM
Anyway - groceries.
 
Anyway, yeah, afaik it's pretty much accepted that the stronger aliasing rules are basically the secret sauce that makes Fortran go faster than C. But there are different "degrees" of aliasing rules, so it doesn't have to be completely black and white
 
sublime text 2 is awesome
 
Old, Sublime Text 3 is out :P
 
beta
not out
I'll switch when it's stable
 
@jalf Yes, there are shades of grey. C++ using expression templates can often be extremely competitive with Fortran. IMO, it's rarely relevant though: for people doing Fortran-ish things, C++ offers competitive speed, but no real benefit to justify learning a new/different language.
 
2:21 PM
> there are shades of grey
yep about 50
room topic changed to Lounge<Fortran>: MOAR FORTRAN! [c++] [c++11] [c++-faq] [no-questions]
 
@MartinJames Ontario. There's the problem.
 
before long there would be some newb with a fortran question coming in ...
 
@EtiennedeMartel Ontarien demandé ;)
 
@Telkitty猫咪咪 At my age I probably still remember Fortran better than what I had for breakfast this morning. Wait a sec. Did I remember to eat breakfast? Hmm...I'll be back shortly. Need to eat breakfast.
 
lol jerry
 
2:29 PM
lol
 
@JerryCoffin oh great, you can answer the question for us in that case
 
@JerryCoffin I don't eat breakfast.
 
well
for about the last two weeks I've been eating one meal a day
maybe two if I was lucky
 
I'm too lazy to eat breakfast
I'm starving by lunch so I have to eat
 
damn
lazy boy
 
2:32 PM
and dinner I'll normally eat too
 
I'm too sick to be awake by the appropriate hour for lunch, let alone breakfast.
 
follow my technique - have your food storage closet filled with no-preparation snacks within armsreach of the computer
 
@nightcracker I'm a lion, what do you expect?
 
killing instincts, hunting, etc
 
man I need to buy cupboards full of snacks
my new flat is right above a grocery store
so I'll be able to hop down easily if I fancy something
 
2:34 PM
in that case
get one of these
 
@TonyTheLion For the ultimate in laziness, you need to install an elevator (if you don't have one already).
 
@JerryCoffin heh
 
@nightcracker That shit just makes you fat. I would know.
 
@DeadMG how does nescafe, an empty jug and some alcohol make you fat?
 
well, alcohol actually contains quite a few calories...
 
2:36 PM
I don't buy alcohol
Its rare that I get drunk these days
 
You steal it?
 
but when most people say "snacks" they think of things like crisps and chocolate bars
 
good guy Tony
@nightcracker I plain have no need to get drunk or even drink alcohol. The only times I'll drink something is when I'm out with friends, but even then I'll stick to one beer or so.
Also I don't see the apparent joy people find in drinking. I find the next day most unpleasant
 
drinking != getting drunk
 
@TonyTheLion You don't drink because you only drink with friends. Clearly you need more friends.
 
2:38 PM
hell, I find that day even more unpleasant.
 
@JerryCoffin I haven't been living close to most of my friends. Soon that's about to change, though a lot of my friends aren't that big on drinking either.
 
i find drinking and working (coding) incompatible.. but I work too much
 
@TonyTheLion "I don't drink because I don't enjoy it and most of my friends don't either" seems a lot more acceptable to me.
 
dunno
 
@willj ever heard of Ballmer peak?
 
2:40 PM
I think that coding can be easier if you're a very little bit tipsy
 
@JerryCoffin heh. I didn't really need your acceptance, but hey, I'm glad its now more acceptable to you.
@DeadMG lol
 
for DeadMG
 
PuppyMG
 
@Borgleader i've tried that, and while i felt superhuman at the time, i changed my mind when looking back at the code when sober
 
2:44 PM
@DeadMG Playing StarCraft 2 was much easier with a beer.
 
also sleeping and coding don't mix
 
@willj Of course, because you can't write code when sleeping.
 
too much coding before bedtime leads to attempting to code in my dreams
 
I don't code after work
 
and coming up with amazing solutions.. that turn out to be complete nonsense when i wake up
 
2:47 PM
@TonyTheLion Hmph...taking responsibility for your own actions instead of bowing to peer pressure. You're obviously a product of defective parenting.
4
 
@JerryCoffin Hahah
 
Or maybe your peers are not applying the right pressure.
 
user784668
Ya, the pressure they apply is 2 bars too low.
 
ok, Fuck This™, I really don't need a separate AST node type for every single different kind of binary expression.
 
user784668
ITT: DeadMG realized C++ supports enums?
 
2:53 PM
no.
I just hadn't realized how much code I would save by using one.
 
Someone emailed me about a typo on my blog.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Welcome to the Internet.
 
But he's right. It's a typo on a code snippet so I should fix it.
 
you dont compile your code snippets? :P
 
user784668
@R.MartinhoFernandes OF course he is right. Everybody on the Internet is right.
 
2:59 PM
Its on the Internet, so it must be true.
@Borgleader In his head probably.
 
user784668
@TonyTheLion Famous Socrates quote.
 
user1804599
Hel.
 
hell no - n hello?
 
Cmon delivery person, bring me my tea so i can attempt to get some nops
 
3:04 PM
hmmmm, shit.
I just realized I did a nice refactoring and I actually probably can't do it that way.
 
@TonyTheLion The only choice -- none of the other compilers implements the features he uses.
 
ITT puppy cheats at refactoring.
 
Is the VC team working on C++?
 
yes
 
@Pawnguy7 What else would it do? :P
 
I don't know. I am getting this impression they are behind, so I was wondering why.
 
user784668
@Pawnguy7 No, they're slacking off.
 
@Pawnguy7 Their compiler didn't have ASTs
they had to retrofit
 
@Pawnguy7 didn't they add support for variadic templates?
 
user784668
@Borgleader Yet somehow it kinda works most of the time. Fascinating.
 
3:09 PM
That sounds like so much stuck.
S/t//
 
user784668
@R.MartinhoFernandes This is SO, you can edit.
 
I should probably get off my ass and take a train home. Sat down to wait for the next one and now I don't want to stand up again.
That's ten trains later.
 
lol
 
@Borgleader I'm curious to read more about that, got a reference?
 
@Fanael not on Cripplenet devices.
 
3:12 PM
@willj It's not an article it's a video of Herb Sutter giving a conference. It was linked here but I don't have the link atm.
 
@Borgleader It was in //BUILD/ when they were talking about the new C++11 features.
 
Ah yes that was it
 
oh boy.
I'm on a refactoring fucking trip, here.
 
3:20 PM
to be re-fucked in other words.
 
Refactoring without tests is scary, man.
 
one of the many things on my todo plate
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Carpe diem.
(Because "yolo" is for douchebags)
 
besides
there's little point writing tests for functionality I am literally in the middle of eliminating.
 
@EtiennedeMartel s/douchebags/douchenozzles.
because...
 
3:25 PM
@TonyTheLion Also douchewagons, douchebuckets, douchelords, douchemasters...
 
@Borgleader More information in Herb's blog comment: herbsutter.com/2013/06/26/…
 
@EtiennedeMartel ohhh douchebuckets
 
Oh that kind of refactoring
I still like to test those because templates and two phase lookup and sfinaes and shit
 
@TonyTheLion Oh my God. Never laughed that much this week. Thanks :)
 
3:28 PM
@Etienne is "sac à foutre" (spelling?) like " douchebag"?
 
@DeadMG that falls outside my definition of refactoring, which requires that the resulting code does exactly the same as it did before
 
Any idea how to make internet explorer not be default for opening stuff?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes No. Actually, we use "douchebag" in French for that.
Or just "douche".
 
@Pawnguy Default Programs ans Options.
 
@willj Yeah... I'm introducing some fairly major changes in functionality now.
 
3:33 PM
I still don't know what made internet explorer decided I wanted it to open txt files...
 
for example, it should now be possible to use a Wide free function to add a C++ type and another type together, and some operators can be implemented in terms of others by default.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes What? Surely you're not STILL stuck somewhere that is not-Berlin?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Come to think of it, we use a lot of English words.
 
@Martin I'm at Alexanderplatz.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yay! Congratulations, you have survived the european airline network, again.
 
3:37 PM
.txt isn't listed under internet explorer. Of note is, it says "Notepad++ Document", but it has IE logo and opens with the latter.
 
3:49 PM
@DeadMG sounds .. revolutionary?
 
well, I'm pretty sure that having another language X that is not C++ being able to deal with C++ is certainly a new thing.
also, holy shit, I found myself compelled to use override.
 
user784668
@DeadMG Even C++ is not able to deal with C++, if both are compiled using different compilers.
 
true.
unfortunately, I don't offer any other compilers at the moment other than Clang 3.3
 
hmm, if i was writing a new language to improve on C++, there is a lot that i would change
 
funny, there's a lot that I changed too.
but you can enjoy spending a year trying to figure out why the fuck Clang won't code generate the functions you asked it to first :P
 
3:54 PM
i would definitely break backwards compatibility
is Clang fun to work with?
 
no.
 
why not?
 
their coding practices are fifteen years out of date.
no exceptions, no C++11
and their design is very unfriendly to external users
 
i glanced through the source and it looks quite modern compared to.. GCC
 
true.
but that's only a relative comparison to the only other offering.
compared to a lot of other stuff, it's really not funny.
 
3:57 PM
i considered using libclang, but for the same reason decided it would be more fun to roll my own - using modern C++
 
er, no.
you're insane.
 
yes, i am
 
there's a reason I use Clang even though it is a shitty, shitty library
and that's because the only thing worse than Clang would be reinventing Clang.
brb dog feeding
 
that's because you're actually trying to achieve something ;)
 
the only reason I use LLVM
 
3:59 PM
i'm just in it for the laughs
 
is because I can't be bothered writing an assembler for multiple architectures
the optimizer it gives is nice too
 

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