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5:00 AM
@Potatoswatter And it keeps goin' on and on, passing from generations to generations.
 
@EtiennedeMartel How could you call him bad for trying to wrangle together everyone? D:
 
@ThePhD Hm?
 
@JerryCoffin Nice.
 
@MarkGarcia I thought so, but it's also one of my most down-voted answers (-5). It's quite apparent that for a fair number of people, the only acceptable answer to "why Java" sounds a lot like "because it's the greatest that's ever been or ever will be."
 
5:04 AM
@EtiennedeMartel DeadMG and Kyrostat and all that! D:
 
@ThePhD I'm not calling anyone bad.
@DeadMG had lots of great ideas. The mistake I did at the time was failing to recognize that he was the "lead" and as such he called the shots.
 
@JerryCoffin Hehe. But I totally agree with you. But I've seen some schools who are starting to replace Java with C++. Good luck to them. :-)
 
I wish less schools focused on Java.
Or there was like, a split.
Where you could Choose Your Own Path.
If I was a professor, I'd let you program in either Java, C++, or C#.
Pick your poison.
 
If I was a professor, the language I would teach would be entirely dependant on what the course is about.
 
If you wanted to be fancy, you could have your wrangle of Haskell too.
 
5:08 AM
@MarkGarcia At least as of C++11, I think that's a lot more tenable proposition than it was previously.
 
user1357851
I was forced to learn C++ & Java at uni. There was not choice. It's learn both or fail
 
I think Java, C++ (or C), Haskell, and C# is a good enough range of languages to be able to teach everything from Game Programming to Data Structures and Algorithms.
 
During college, I was taught C++03. Real, actual C++03. Not C with Classes. Took about 150 hours of classes before we saw a pointer.
 
@ThePhD There are problems with that. First and foremost, finding profs who know that many languages well enough to grade them all (and with enough ambition to bother, even if they could do it).
 
user1357851
then you have shell script python and PHP
 
5:10 AM
@ThePhD What about AI, systems programming, concurrency, distributed systems, machine learning or data mining?
 
@JerryCoffin But they they would definitely run into troubles they haven't encountered before in Java. C++11 could also be a very new something for teachers. Thus, they would most probably stay with old school C++ (or even pre-standard C++!).
 
Systems and and Concurrency, and Machine Learning / Data Mining I can see in C++ and C#.
 
Another problem is how you grade. For example, if you're teaching an algorithms course, do you ding a C++ program just because it leaks memory? Irrelevant to the algorithm, but highly relevant to whether the code is (at all) well written.
 
I would keep to very high level languages unless low level stuff is part of the course description.
 
@JerryCoffin Hencewhy it's 'Pick your Poison.' Every language gets a baseline of requirements for it; you accept those when you pick the language.
 
5:12 AM
Especially for university level CS, which is mostly theoretical anyway.
 
@EtiennedeMartel I don't know enough about Distributed Systems or Data Mining to know which language to pick.
 
@MarkGarcia From what I've seen on SO, much (most?) coursework/homework is still oriented toward pre-standard C++ (e.g., virtually no use of standard library beyond, possibly, cin and cout).
 
AI, I'm foggy on, but I'd want to say C++ or even Python.
 
@ThePhD I'd go with a LISP derivative.
 
I was thinking LISP if we were going to get into Robotics and shit.
 
5:13 AM
hmm... ...I wonder why negative UDL's aren't allowed...
 
I don't know any LISP derivates, though.
 
@JerryCoffin That could mean there's very few c++ teachers out there who innovate themselves. Pretty sad.
 
@ThePhD Everybody's a bit foggy on AI, because it's a constantly moving target -- the minute a technique becomes practical or useful, it's classified as "not AI".
 
@ThePhD The concept of AI itself is foggy.
 
@MarkGarcia Quite true. Bjarne recently said something about having read through some introductory C++ books and concluded that if that's what C++ is like, he hated it too.
 
5:14 AM
@MarkGarcia It's usually A*.
The only thing that changes is how you build your graph and what's your g and h functions.
But aside from that, it's A*.
That's how you make decisions.
 
That said, you can certainly define a function that returns a negative number, like 3_negative :)
 
Alright guys.
 
@JerryCoffin Yeah, wasn't there a name for that?
 
I have to do Spatial Partioning and Hit Testing against a random level now...
 
@kfmfe04 Because unary - is an operator, and a UDL is a token which doesn't include operators.
 
5:16 AM
And I have to create that level from Polygon/Mesh Soup. >_<
 
@EtiennedeMartel At one time, neural nets were an accepted part of AI, but not any more. Likewise, in the '50s, things like handwriting recognition and even OCR were considered "AI problems" -- but not any more.
@EtiennedeMartel Wouldn't surprise me (I doubt I'm the only one who's noticed it), but I don't know that the name would be.
 
The AI effect occurs when onlookers discount the behavior of an artificial intelligence program by arguing that it is not real intelligence. Pamela McCorduck writes: "It's part of the history of the field of artificial intelligence that every time somebody figured out how to make a computer do something—play good checkers, solve simple but relatively informal problems—there was chorus of critics to say, 'that's not thinking'." AI researcher Rodney Brooks complains "Every time we figure out a piece of it, it stops being magical; we say, Oh, that's just a computation." AI is whatever hasn'...
 
@EtiennedeMartel nice :)
 
Anyway, I want to try implementing GOAP in the game I'm working on.
I wonder if it's feasible.
 
They're thinking that true AI should think just as a human does. If so, why study AI?
 
5:19 AM
On the flip side of neural networks, there are the researchers trying to simulate systems as biology and doing "just computation." For example memristors are supposed to simulate neural systems… except we don't know how said neural systems work, it's just that they model a certain class of differential equations.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Yup -- pretty much what I was talking about.
 
@EtiennedeMartel GOAP?
 
Ah.
An AI routine.
I could use one of those.
Seeing as I want to have AI in my game.
 
I do think there's a legitimate separation between simply some way of solving a particular, problem, and research that's at least intended to yield insight into how human (or other animal) intelligence works. Just for example, I doubt that studying a typical OCR engine would yield much insight into how people read.
@MarkGarcia I have, at times, dismissed AI research as a bit silly by pointing out that we've known for a long time how to produce real intelligence (and at least parts of it are pretty enjoyable).
 
5:28 AM
Oh hey, our i++ + ++i questions aren't the most duped questions:
1
A: What is the most rampant duplicate on Stack Exchange sites?

Shog9Since Jarrod spent so much time and effort cleansing the data last week, I figured it'd be a shame not to have some fun with it. Here are the top 30 questions (by # of questions closed as duplicates of them) on SO: 204    Headers already sent by PHP 194  &n...

 
@Mysticial Hey, a PHP question on top? How peculiar.
 
@Mysticial ...but it's in a close enough third that I'll bet if we looked hard, we could find enough to get it really close to (if not at) the top.
 
Hm.
I.. don't have a clue how I'm going to set up my levels and stuff in code.
Also have no idea how to set up physics.
 
@ThePhD Depends on what kind of levels you need.
 
The geometry and a good chunk of the design for the levels is done...
 
5:40 AM
Think about gameplay first, then how it's gonna work.
 
The gameplay is like this:
Freeform Movement, the ability to jump and move. Freeform Combat (attacks, combos, specials, maybe internal wait time after certain combos and attacks (see original SNES Tales of Phantasia, Seiken Densetsu 3, and related))
 
How are the levels structured?
 
There is no specific combat mode or combat arenas or battle screens. It's all in the game as is.
Levels are simply open-world maps, where you can move about. I ahven't decided how you'll get from one map to the next, but it'll most likely be faded-screen portals.
Still, I won't have to worry about that aspect righ now: I'm just trying to hammer down on a single level.
 
A level is essentially a scene graph.
 
@EtiennedeMartel : Hiya bro! :D Great to see ya
 
5:43 AM
So, the question is how you create that graph.
 
I don't know.
I have no idea how to tackle the idea in my head.
 
In our case, we got our very own tool that takes a bunch of 3ds max scenes (exported in a custom format) and lays them.
 
Oh, sweet.
 
@EtiennedeMartel : So, you guys are making a game? A platfrom type-game?
 
Or at least that's the goal.
Ha.
 
5:44 AM
My artists are making levels in Maya.
And then there's the one artist who swears by 3ds Max, but...
 
Maya is expensive...
 
.... In either case. Would I have to write an Exporter?
That'll spit out stuff specifically for my level?
 
I don't think so.
 
Or should I parse an FBX file and generate the level from the FBX?
 
I think the best is to have a level format.
 
5:46 AM
Alright, I don't know if I can write an Importer/Exporter to Maya or 3ds Max in any amount of reasonable time...
 
Our plan with our level editor is to place a bunch of objects (which are 3ds scenes), maybe script some of them, and then send that to a converter that'll generate a file in an engine-readable format.
 
So maybe I'll just write an offline converter that goes from an FBX Scene to a level.
Ah!
Yes, that's what I mean by offline reader.
So then I should start by making the Level Generator.
 
You want two formats: one that's human-readable and easy to edit, for tools, and another one that's machine readable and optimized, to allow for faster loading by your engine.
 
FBX is already pretty fast as a scene format...
 
And that way you can pretty much just file map the whole thing.
 
5:48 AM
So, wait wait wait.
Human-readable and easy to edit?
That almost sounds like I'd need to make a Level Editor of some kind to spit out either the binary or text version.
 
@ThePhD Regardless of the exact format you use, you almost certainly want a general purpose engine for which the actual levels are basically just some sort of data file.
 
@ThePhD The way we go with it is to have the text version being an input for our asset pipeline.
 
@ThePhD One (major) advantage of using a recognized level format is that you can avoid all that.
 
Yeah, I don't know any "freeform platformer level" formats just lying around..
I can see the whole thing in my head.
Trying to digest it into chunks and make the actual level into code is giving me a headache...
 
In our case, it's not really possible because of how the world has to look like (we need to blend procedurally generated stuff with hand-made levels).
 
5:52 AM
@EtiennedeMartel 3ds max scenes? So you have a text file which literally says "get this scene here, get these things out of it, work with it this way" ?
 
@ThePhD It's a XML tree. Each node is a path to a mesh or a scene and optionally a transform and some scripting information (the "scripting" part is a work in progress, hehe).
So, essentially, the level's scene graph in XML form.
 
X_o XML
 
Hey, it's tree-shaped and easy to parse.
 
Not going to be able to read that easily in C++ unless I pick up Yet Another Library
 
Works well.
 
5:53 AM
@EtiennedeMartel Yeah, in C#
 
Oh, right, should have mentionned that our asset pipeline is entirely in C#.
 
Where there's a MILLION styles of XML reader.
 
@ThePhD But only one good: LINQ to XML.
The engine is in C++, though.
 
Alright, I'll make my asset pipeline out of C#.
I'm really good with working with stuff in C# so might as well take a swing.
 
But it's all work in progress in anyway.
We got a bunch of bits lying arround.
 
5:55 AM
In 2D, this was a lot easier.
"Define the level line(s). Define the event boxes. Define enemy positions and spawners. Done."
In 3D, everything just gets so collassally hard.
 
It's not that different in 3D"
 
=l
 
The main issue is that you need much more complex tools.
 
Well, yes. In 2D I could make my own shit lickety split.
Level Design?
Just read a specially drawn picture.
Now?
 
Yeah, tile shit.
 
5:57 AM
My god, my head hurts. x_x
This is why from the beginning I begged my artistic and design people to make the game in 2D.
Because 3D just peppers on the complexity.
And I've been biting all the bullets when they said they wanted to go full 3D
And wrote the engine and shaders and the everything and MAN, it's hard.
 
Especially for a platformer.
 
The unfortunate part is, though, none of them can do 2D animation worth a shit. :3c
 
I mean, 3D platforming is hard.
 
So it's 3D platforming.
 
Anyway, I'm sure you could recruit the Cat.
 
5:59 AM
Pfahahah.
He'd sooner tell me I suck and laugh at me.
 
He seemed incredibly eager to do some things.
@ThePhD He's not like that.
Deep inside, he's a fragile flower.
 
A fragile flower that has the ability to shoot venom in your eye when you go to sniff him.
But a fragile flower, yeah I can see that.
 
It's a defensive mechanism.
 
@EtiennedeMartel I'd say it's not even all that deep. Like most cynics, he's ultimately an optimist (and probably a perfectionist) who's been wounded a few too many times.
 
@ThePhD Anyway, it seemed like he really wanted to work on a game. So ask him.
It's not like you've got anything to lose.
 
6:01 AM
True, I have nothing to lose.
I've pitched a simple 2D game to someone else in the lounge and I haven't heard back from them yet...
I did say they could take their time to decide, so I'll just wait on that one.
@CatPlusPlus Hey hey hey wake up honeybunches. <33
 
I'm going to sleep.
 
D'aww.
Well, okay.
 
When you awake, YOU WILL SEE A GAME LEEVEELLL.
 
In the meantime, enjoy this sexy screenshot.
 
6:03 AM
IT'S SO BEAUTIFUL.
Lol, 57 fuck le brun per second
@EtiennedeMartel Wait
What's that thing on the right side
that shows you the green and yellow marks for edited and saved text lines?
 
@ThePhD Oh. I had a C# file opened in the background. It's R# showing warnings and hints.
 
Oh, Resharper...
 
@EtiennedeMartel : Do you use Visual Assist X?
 
@GamesBrainiac That shit suuuuucks.
 
Anything good for C++?
 
6:05 AM
VAX saves my life in C++.
 
Something like resharper?
 
@ThePhD Yeah, "fuck le brun" was part of that design presentation I pitched to the team. I don't like brown. Or gray.
 
@EtiennedeMartel er...
 
So when one of the guys tested out the font rendering, he decided to use that for the FPS counter.
 
Its just that the people who say VAX sucks, never give me an alternative
 
6:06 AM
@GamesBrainiac The problem is, for C++, there's none.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Brown and grey are indeed boring as shit.
 
Its one of the oldest languages on the planet, how come it does not have a good Ide?
 
@GamesBrainiac Because it's hard as fuck to parse.
 
C++ is a parsing nightmare.
I plan to fix that when I make CFlat. :P
 
In Belgium we have a game development company called Larian. It hasn't released many big titles though. Divine divinity is their most known game.
 
6:08 AM
Looks like fun.
Divine Divinity, that is.
 
Yeah, I should try it :)
I did my internship there back in 2005.
 
@ThePhD Already being fixed -- even though it's only quite recently gotten to the point of handling most C++ reasonably well, quite a few Clang-based tools are already showing up. As it matures, plan on seeing far more, especially in open-source.
 
Hopefully so.
Also,
I just realized that Cat spent like
15 minutes saying "Fuck 3D platformers"
"(seriously)"
And I'm about to invite him to help me make a 3D platformer beat 'em up.
.... FORMULA FOR SUCCESS, ACHIEVED.
 
@ThePhD If the problem is interesting, it'll work.
 
@ThePhD Yeah, that may not go over the best. Hard to blame him though -- as Etienne pointed out, they really are hard.
 
6:12 AM
So. Good night everyone.
See you all in nine hours. Ha.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Later. Sleep well.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Goooood night.
Welp.
Time to sack up and write out a level design spec.
Or rather, Vagina Up.
Because scrotal sacs are weak, but vaginas?
Vaginas can take a pounding.
( @sehe Did I do good? :D )
 
No
 
Do you use #pragma once or include guards?
 
include guards
 
6:31 AM
which one is better
writing #pragma once is simple enough
but which one actually comes recommended/
 
same shit
 
then pragma it is! :D
 
pragma once has to be supported by the compiler ergo it's a compiler extension I guess
 
I'd use include guards. Pragma once seems to be at least semi-deprecated recently.
 
I think Bill Weineman said that they were typically not portable
 
6:44 AM
@GamesBrainiac Said that include guards weren't portable? I so, he's just plain wrong. Any compiler that doesn't work with include guards is thoroughly broken.
 
no, pragmas were not
that is what he meant
 
@GamesBrainiac Ah, in that case he's technically correct, but for most practical purposes it's irrelevant. Most compilers you're likely to encounter when using portable code (e.g., EDG, MS, gcc) implement it. There are compilers that don't implement it, but they're mostly for small embedded systems that mostly use fairly non-portable software anyway.
 
I see
I prefer #pragma once, you have you write it just once (see what i did there? :P)
 
@GamesBrainiac Yes, observed long ago many times. IMO, mostly irrelevant though, as the time to type include guards is hardly a major factor in software development.
 
@JerryCoffin : I know what you mean. I just wish there was a good IDE out for C++
 
6:53 AM
Kind of irrelevant..
 
@GamesBrainiac That would be nice, wouldn't it?
 
@JerryCoffin : I know. I think that is one of the reasons why people developed easier to parse languages such as C# and the like
Because without a doubt, C++ is very powerful. Fast as C code and has OO
and many features that other languages are just implementing
 
@GamesBrainiac Maybe partly -- but I think most of that had other motivations (Java to handicap the better developers, C# to compete directly with Java).
 
I guess. Shame though. This language is super powerful. Maybe jetbrains will come along and make something
:P
 
The other side of it is that Java and C# need good IDEs (and automated editing) because of how poorly they're designed, and how much repetition they require.
 
6:57 AM
I'd say C++ needs a good IDE too. I mean, its ULTRA difficult to find an error, especially if you've used templates
 
@GamesBrainiac Template errors can be a major problem, no doubt about that. Finding them well is largely a compiler problem though.
 
Yes, whats worse is when you have multiple levels of inheritence to deal with.
That truly is a nightmare
 

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