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12:00 AM
then don't think
 
Ell
I'm really messed up in the head :L anyway
 
Ell
Easier said than done :L
anyway goodnight all
 
goodnight
<-------- Y U NO TYPE CORRECTLY?
 
@Ell It's not really random then. but I get your point now. Seriously, you don't really need a knife.I'd say lose it. Your knife is not a good friend.
Again, night!
 
12:01 AM
night!
 
Knives will cut your fingers.
I'm speaking from experience.
Gosh, I wrote "knifes".
 
:D
Mack the Knife is a good lad too.
 
Drei Grosschen Oper. Opera, in a way, yes
@ScarletAmaranth What an exciting buildup. Never heard it quite this way.
 
FTR I was about to do something. I forgot what.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Install STM module.
 
12:07 AM
@sehe I think a better solution would be to install a TVTropes inhibitor.
 
:)
 
oh noes, the bot's been stuck on TVTropes :P
 
I wish that there were more TV shows which didn't focus around embarassing the primary characters
am I some kind of freak for not wanting to watch other people get utterly destroyed in a social setting?
 
That's called taste. It is harmless.
 
12:17 AM
@DeadMG Any particular examples?
 
In fact you can use it to your advantage. And watching less tele saves time.
 
I don't like The Big Bang Theory precisely because of this.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Currently watching The Peep Show
it's my favourite comedians, Mitchell and Webb, and Mitchell's character is a socially awkward smart guy (so I clearly identify) but he does nothing but make mistakes and let his friend get him into trouble
 
we have a socially awkward puppy...
not a pengiun
 
Xeo
@RMartinhoFernandes I expected an image with a hidden link to tvtropes instead of the link to the image. Son, I am disappoint.
2
 
12:45 AM
What happens after we get processors made with a 4nm process (Intel estimates ~10 years from now)? I don't think smaller transistors are possible (that's ~7 atoms wide). We can sink money into cooling/overclocking, and drop old processor instruction paths, but I think that only delays the problem. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4_nanometer
i voted up your answer, thx for a try) — Yuri Barbashov 55 mins ago
I'm pretty sure that's not what votes are for
 
1:07 AM
SO AWESUM
 
Xeo
1:24 AM
@DeadMG That reminds me, I never finished FF8, because when you get shot into space and have to change your CD, the last CD had a crack or sth and couldn't load. :(
 
@MooingDuck logical direction is to do more 3D layout. problem with that is cooling. biological brains manage so it's solvable.
 
1:42 AM
I don't have time to stick around, I just had to post this
0
Q: I've never seen encryption before. What does this C encryption snippet do?

user1413866long time reader first time writer. I was given a code a few weeks ago as part of an application to an encryption job I was interested in. They sent me a code and basically wanted to see if I understood it and could improve it. I tried my best but all the code was brand new to me and I couldn't...

This is an atrocity against nature.
An abomination.
 
If I have some machine (say a Kripke structure), does there exist some algorithm for finding out which transitions need to be taken to reach a certain state from a starting state, without enumerating each possible solution?
 
there are only attempts to reduce the problem search space from brute force.
cya
 
2:01 AM
what's a standard headphone plug: 3.5mm or 2.5mm?
it's not exactly obvious what's measured!
 
Xeo
@CheersandhthAlf 3.5 IIRC
 
thanks
i'll buy both just to be sure
 
Xeo
gnaaaah, my internet connection is so fucking slow again.. whyyy
 
cpx
Can I get here from some kind of chat client? Firefox gets slow and freezes on this old computer..
 
Xeo
Webonly IIRC
 
cpx
2:17 AM
Should I google it?
 
Xeo
the fuck. My router login isn't reachable, but I can ping its IP just fine...
 
cpx
Not sure If I should touch that
19
A: IRC access for the chat?

Greg Hewgillupdate: initial author isn't working on this anymore (last commit was 2010) As Andy E's head mentioned, I've started to create an IRC interface for the SO chat. The current state of the code is on Github: http://github.com/ghewgill/soirc It's all ugly, nascent, fragile code right now but I expe...

 
Arrrgh. LD Y U NEED ORDERED LIBS?
 
@Xeo: I find your answer fine. It's not reference_wrapper's job to do anything but act like a reference wrapper.
 
Xeo
@GManNickG Yeah, but my edit was dumb :P
@GManNickG Feel free to post exactly that as an answer, you have my upvote.
 
2:28 AM
But then I have to do the hard work of defending it. :( Okay.
 
Xeo
heh
 
There. Blurring the line between defending and being a bit of a dick.
 
Xeo
I like it.
 
 
1 hour later…
Xeo
3:53 AM
@GManNickG: I get a feeling that guy has a wrong opinion on what reference_wrapper is for..
 
huh, where?
let me just report the last academic news from Norway: yesterday (it seems it was) students at the Norwegian Technical University got the very same exam as was given last year. for this exam most everything was allowed, including written notes, so many students brought with them solutions to last year's exam, and those students were happily surprised when they saw the exam. the other students, however, were less than overjoyed.
ah, "Norwegian University of Science and Technology" (the remnants of what was once NTH, the Norwegian variant of MIT, but now mostly put under humanistic/social sciences administration)
 
Evening everyone!
Or morning, didn't even look at the clock. Damn.
 
@CheersandhthAlf I've had that happen to me, but only because for some subjects there are only so many exercises that will be rotated over the years. Was that exam something like the only examination for the semester or something?
 
Whoah.
 
4:11 AM
oh, i'm reading the reader comments. it seems the professor has done that before, and some students took a chance that he would do it again this time, and brought complete and perfect exam answers with them.
 
I simply don't see the point of school systems. If you want to know about something, study it. Connect with people interested in that topic. Be it natural, social or humanistic sciences.
If you're going to cheat, use old tests and such. What's the point?
You're only lying to yourself.
 
user406009
@DomagojPandža But then what would we do with all of these fancy pieces of paper?
 
I know, they're amazing and to die for. I don't know really, there are some universities where you can really get into an amazing scientific atmosphere. It's really shameful to see people on such places without any interest or ambition, just going through it because "society expects it".
Instead of being driven by curiosity, they are driven by survival. By any means necessary.
Anyone here plays a guitar in his spare time?
 
4:26 AM
yes
 
@Xeo Urg, this is what I feared!
 
@CheersandhthAlf Nice, enjoying it? I've been playing for 6 years and still I feel the lack of confidence when I take it up. Probably the lack of effort on my part, but still, you'd think it'd add up over the years.
 
i've not been playing for about half a year. then day before yesterday got a new guitar. now my fingers hurt :-(
 
That will pass with time, but it's inevitable. I have a 60s Fender Stratocaster, a beautiful instrument. One of the things that amazes me is that we can contemplate compiler optimization, language design, computer architecture, design electronic devices, derive mathematical tools which help us construct 3D worlds, calculate realtime local reflections in screen space...
And yet, some of us, like me... Can't make Clapton's Layla solo sound right even after 6 years.
Yeah, probably, lack of effort and time. But still, even after all these years: youtube.com/watch?v=fX5USg8_1gA - ~3:00... It still blows my mind.
 
4:57 AM
C++ Primer Plus 5th edition by Stephen Prata: I don't understand why everyone on Stackoverflow says this book is no good because it "teaches C wrapped in classes". Whatever that means. Everywhere else on the internet (mainly Amazon.com) this book receives "EXCELLENT REVIEWS". I mean really good, very excellent reviews. This book is used at my college for an intro to structured programming using C++.
I've started reading this book and its fantastic. I'm not understand what the stackoverflow people dislike about this book and why they don't respect it. Please comment directlly. THanks
 
@DiscreteGenius C++ Primer should be a C++ Primer. Not "Some C++ with mainly C Primer". C and C++, although relatively compatible, are two different languages. And that should be respected.
 
@DiscreteGenius Because on StackOverflow we code relatively modern C++, which is "good" C++. C with classes is not good C++. You're only setting yourself up to learn bad practices that way, and we want to avoid that. I'll wager 90+% of all c++ questions on SO could be answered by simply programming C++ in the modern idiomatic way.
7
 
@DomagojPandža There is a difference between "C++ Primer" and "C++ Primer Plus". Do not confuse the two. I'm referring to the one by author Stephen Prata, mainly 5th edition.
 
Xeo
@GManNickG Should say "Because in Lounge<C++> we code..." since most of those "FUCK C WITH CLASSES!" comments are from regulars in here. :>
 
@GManNickG Why does not one make reference in there reviews about Prata's book not teaching correctly. Also, is his latest (just released this year) 6th edition better, modern, good C++ ??
 
5:04 AM
@GManNickG With me being the only counterexample. :)
 
Xeo
Btw, does anybody know if compilers are allowed to enumerate (and instantiate) all available ctors when performing copy construction?
@Mysticial To what? :P
 
@Xeo The only one in this room who doesn't code in proper C++.
 
Xeo
heh, you're doing HPC, which is pretty specialized, so meh.
 
Hahah, no, it was a joke (I'm not referring to some other book), GManNickG has expressed explicitly what I meant. C++ offers modern approaches to problems which are more in touch with the needs of modern software engineering. With the newest update C++11, there's even more reason to party. I'm especially looking forward to the threading facilities.
 
Xeo
Also, you do know what proper C++ is atleast. :)
 
5:05 AM
Do you guys understand that there are two books with nearly the same name. I'm referring to STEPHEN PRATA's book called "C++ Primer PLUS". Notice I added "PLUS", in C++ Primer PLUS.
 
@DiscreteGenius I don't quite understand what you're saying, sorry. And I have no idea, I don't trust him to write good C++ nor do I need a beginner book, so I won't be reading it.
@DiscreteGenius Yes.
 
@Xeo Or do I? Nah...
Naked pointers are sexier. :P
 
@GManNickG You don't trust him to write good C++ ? What book should I read?
 
Xeo
heh
 
@DiscreteGenius The one without the plus :p
 
Xeo
5:07 AM
1165
Q: The Definitive C++ Book Guide and List

grepsedawkThis question attempts to collect the few pearls among the dozens of bad C++ books that are released every year. Unlike many other programming languages, which are often picked up on the go from tutorials found on the Internet, few are able to quickly pick up C++ without studying a good C++ book...

 
@GManNickG I'm saying that I've read all the reviews (nearly 100 reviews on Amazon) and none of them make reference to his LACK OF GOOD C++. No one says anything about his "C wrapped in classes" or "bad c++" problems.
 
Xeo
> If you are new to programming or if you have experience in other languages and are new to C++, these books are highly recommended.

    C++ Primer† (Stanley Lippman, Josée Lajoie, and Barbara E. Moo) Coming at 1k pages, this is a very thorough introduction into C++ that covers just about everything in the language in a very accessible format and in great detail. Make sure you have the latest edition! [Review]
 
@DiscreteGenius So? Then either nobody writing those reviews knows what they're doing in C++, or they didn't feel the need to mention it. Ask them.
 
Yeah, I've heard every other person on SO make reference to "The Definitive C++ Book Guide and List" and frankly its inadequate. Sorry.
 
Xeo
5:09 AM
> † Not to be confused with C++ Primer Plus (Stephen Prata), with a significantly less favorable review.
^ the review
 
@DiscreteGenius What's inadequate?
 
Inadequate?
Bjarne Stroustrup's introduction is inadequate?
That's like saying that John Carmack is not an authority on BSP.
 
@DomagojPandža don't make it sound like clapton. make it sound like you.
 
Your list "The Definitive C++ Book Guide and List" is inadequate.
 
Thinking in C++ (both volumes) is beautiful.
 
Xeo
5:10 AM
@DiscreteGenius What about it is inadequate? You start to sound like you just want to defend C++ Primer Plus and don't want to hear anything bad about it.
 
also, be aware that the middle part of layla originally was out of tune, down a quarter tone (i think it was)
very difficult to repeat that trick
 
It says that "Beginners" should start off reading "C++ Primer 4th by Lippman", but then in the intro to Lippmans book it says that I should have adequate knowledge of programming in a language (C).
 
Xeo
> If you are new to programming or if you have experience in other languages and are new to C++
 
On what page does his book make the claim that the reader can be "...new to programming" ??
 
@DiscreteGenius To learn C++, you really should.
 
5:14 AM
Argh! Then why do the universities start you off with C++.
 
Also, when you learn more about C++, read B. Stroustrup's "Design and Evolution of C++" if you wish to learn more about the why behind the how. Although you'll get a lot of the why in other good books on that very nice list. :P
 
@DiscreteGenius Ask them, not us. Because they are misguided, is the best I can give you.
C++ is a terrible first language.
 
I've heard that.
 
Xeo
@GManNickG I don't think you really need to learn another language first
 
Just tell me where to start LOL!
 
Xeo
5:15 AM
@GManNickG Meh, I have the opposite opinion on that. Just need to start with the right topics, I guess.
 
@Xeo The language has too many "gotchas" to be considered a good language, let alone a good language for beginners. :)
 
Xeo
@GManNickG And I'd rather not have somebody learn Java then come to C++. We have enough of those. :P
 
I learned Java first.
 
I've heard not to start with C++. I've also heard not to learn Java then move to C++.
 
@Xeo I was one of those. :)
 
5:16 AM
@DiscreteGenius C++ Primer. It says you should have some experience in a block-structured languages, yes, but to be honest you can go online and read about C for a day and be fine.
 
Then I learned C++ by reading Accelerated C++.
 
But I have to agree with @GManNickG. C++ definitely has way too many gotchas for beginners.
 
I must say that an aspiring programmer must get used to the hard path. Gotchas are part of the agreement when you sell your soul to the devil. :P
 
Xeo
Know what? Confession time: I started with C. :D
 
@GManNickG If you could be so kindly, I'd like to know "what/where" I can quickly read about C in one day and be fine. Please help me out with that. I'm committed to learning, just tell me.
 
5:17 AM
0
A: What is the exception specification for a defaulted virtual destructor in C++11?

Cheers and hth. - AlfThe standardese starts nicely in C++11 §8.4.2/2, If a function is explicitly defaulted on its first declaration, — it is implicitly considered to be constexpr if the implicit declaration would be, — it is implicitly considered to have the same exception-specification as if it had been imp...

 
I started with C->C++ 10 years ago. Can't say I regret it. :D
 
^ More minds needed.
 
Technically I started with BASIC on C64 :)
 
I have this book on C called, "Teach Yourself C, Third Edition" by Schildt. Anyone know about that one?
 
Xeo
Bullschildt?
 
5:20 AM
Precisely.
:)
 
@DiscreteGenius This is enough to get you familiar with block structure, which then gives you the ability (according to it's introduction) to read C++ Primer.
 
No good? Lol
 
"You now are the proud possessor of BullSchildt. If you can get your money back, do so."
 
@GManNickG Just that one page? I'm there man! I've got that stuff mastered.
 
@DiscreteGenius Then read C++ Primer.
 
5:23 AM
Any book that says "Teach yourself... Do this in 24 hours... Do this in 24 days..." is crap which wants to cash in on lazy people who want everything right now.
A real book does not appeal to your wishes, it appeals to its subject.
Unless it's about food. Then go for it.
 
This doesn't give any timeframe, it just says Teach Yourself C.
 
General advice: Unless a book (or it's source, like a university page) specifically and concretely says "you need to know X", you should just try reading it to see if it works. It's meant for beginners, so you can probably get away with ignoring the introduction.
 
Xeo
@DiscreteGenius It still appeals to you ("Teach yourself")
 
Gotcha
Well shit! This is good news.
Thanks for the help. See ya later.
 
Ferengi Rules of Acquisition, rule 62.: "The riskier the road, the greater the profit." Sometimes, you have to plunge in even if you can't account for everything and learn as you go along. That way you'll hit walls, brave them and continue. It'll be hard, but worthwhile. Sometimes, you'll have to stop and try another way. But that's the lifelong process of learning.
 
5:33 AM
@Xeo: See what you've done. :P I'm just going to have to ignore any more responses.
 
Xeo
@GManNickG Hm?
 
On that question about reference wrappers.
 
@GManNickG How did you get that nickname? I don't know why, but every time I read your response, I automatically read "GSpotMan".
 
@DomagojPandža That's okay with me.
It started as just GMan when I was 8, as my last initial is G and I am male. I added my nick name, Nick, and my last initial to make it longer or more unique when necessary, then I've just switched to GManNickG everywhere since it's simplest.
 
Xeo
@GManNickG Ouch.
room topic changed to Lounge<C++>: I found the last topic to be too long. [c++] [c++11] [c++-faq]
 
5:39 AM
You exist because we allow it. And you will end because we demand it. Suddenly, I'm in a mood for some Mass Effect.
 
@GManNickG GMan from half-life?
 
Xeo
@StackedCrooked > as my last initial is G and I am male
 
@Xeo Still...
 
@StackedCrooked Coincidence. :) Half-life came out the next year, IIRC.
 
Speaking of GMan and Half-Life, where the hell is the third iteration. I'm dying for some Valve classic first class ingenuity.
 
5:41 AM
So it was a way to indicate asl partly.
Partial specialization :D
 
@DomagojPandža The issue is that everyone has extremely high hopes for it, therefore it needs to stay not released longer so it can improve. Which is a vicious cycle.
 
Xeo
@GManNickG Oh btw, I wished "Xeo" was more unique...
 
@Xeo I thought it was unique but it is pretty short.
 
Xeo
Well, it's not all that common, but it's taken friggin everywhere. Especially as an ingame nick...
@StackedCrooked lol, the lineup one
 
5:45 AM
I knew it was an alcohol!
 
Xeo
0
A: Does std::function's copy-constructor require the template type's argument types to be complete types?

XeoThe issue is indeed (as I predicted) with libc++'s SFINAE checks in the templated ctor (for a reasoning, check this question). It checks if the following (for example) is valid and gives a nice and clean error at the construction site rather than deep inside the guts of std::function (try the fol...

Opinions wanted. :)
@Tony: You're not allowed to enter before we say the magical word!
And nobody talked about sex for the last few hours
 
> You're not allowed to penetrate before we say the magical word!
FTFY
 
sex
I said it
I'm going to bed, goodnight
 
'night!
 
@TonyTheLion G'night.
 
5:55 AM
Anybody found the lost space-time continuum somewhere?
 
@DomagojPandža "lost"? Who lost it? And how? It's way too big to just lose it in a stack of papers!
 
Must be in the Lounge<C++> van. You know, with the kitchen sink. And the children.
 
@DomagojPandža What? We have a van? When did that happen?
 
After an external disturbance had been detected, cryogenic chambers were compromised. The cryogenic chamber seals were released, restarting all data systems and equalizing interior pressure with exterior atmosphere in the process. We had to move all of our stuff to the van Tony bought for us. I think somebody stole the space-time continuum, but left the kitchen sink. Would've been too much if he had taken the kitchen sink too.
 
6:11 AM
@Xeo Wrote an answer of my own and commented on yours.
 
Damn, I'm in a good mood today. Could actually get some work done today.
 
Xeo
@LucDanton I think it's very much about lazyness. The templated ctor gets instantiated and triggers the SFINAE check, which in turn triggers the completeness check
Which can be circumvented with a lazy check
 
How can you 'eagerly' instantiate a callable check with just a signature? What is there to check?
 
Xeo
The template parameter is substituted, and the rest follows.
callable calls invokable calls invoke calls invoke_imp calls check_complete
 
How can callable be instantiated without F? It should be dependent.
 
Xeo
6:16 AM
@LucDanton template<class F> function(F f, ...) gets instantiated during overload resolution for the copy ctor call
 
@JerryCoffin What is your primary sphere of activity when software engineering is concerned (professionally)? You seem to be pretty versed in many topics. Operating system design? Compiler design? General purpose application development?
 
@Xeo Mmh, isn't that unspecified though? What with non-template being preferred?
 
Xeo
@LucDanton The templated ctor never acts as a copy ctor, that's why I'm a little bit worried about my explanation and asked in the #llvm channel, but the templated ctor seems to be instantiated while checking all ctors for a matching one. I have no other explanation on why the callable check would be triggered otherwise
 
> If the overload resolution process can determine the correct function to call without instantiating a class template definition, it is unspecified whether that instantiation actually takes place.
 
@DomagojPandža I'm almost afraid to say -- people hate to hear about what I do! I mostly do reverse engineering to figure out whether things infringe on patents.
 
Xeo
6:18 AM
@LucDanton Oha
This might be a "problem" with Clang, then
 
Even ignoring that 'unspecified' bit though the use of sizeof might still result in SFINAE rather than a hard-error.
I.e. is is_complete more of a concept check or a trait?
 
Xeo
sizeof on an incomplete type is a hard error, not a substitution failure
 
If callable is a trait that is written in term of a trait is_complete then the end result should be SFINAE.
 
@JerryCoffin Well, that is challenging, but you could be doing so much more. Although I am more on John Carmack's side of the fence when patents are concerned, there are some legitimate arguments for their existence. Effort and everything. Anyways, don't kill the messenger, a man's got to eat. =)
 
Xeo
It's even static_assert(sizeof(T) > 0, "T must be complete"); so it can't be anything else than a hard error
 
6:21 AM
@Xeo I dunno, if I write template<typename T, int = sizeof(T)> void foo(); then I can have overload resolution end up in template<typename T> void foo(...) {} with an incomplete type.
@Xeo Right, so it's not a trait. Regardless of what Clang does, that's a problem with callable in libc++.
 
Xeo
@LucDanton Sure enough, but if Clang didn't instantiate the templated ctor, the SFINAE check would also never come to pass
 
@DomagojPandža Yeah -- but at least once in a while I end up doing things some people think are more or less "good". I was the lead technical investigator for the European Commission for their anti-trust case against Microsoft.
 
@Xeo libc++ is aiming to be a conforming implementation, isn't it? Might not want to get too tied on the behaviour of Clang, since it's in fact unspecified whether the constructor is instantiated or not.
 
Xeo
Yeah, that's why I said I'll think about submitting a bug report and maybe a patch if the lazy_callable fixes it
 
Really writing a trait in terms of e.g. a concept check is not that great. std::result_of is proof of that.
Admittedly std::result_of doesn't look too much like a trait.
 
Xeo
6:27 AM
Well, I don't think it's a problem that check_complete is a concept here, since the types have to be complete to actually call the templated ctor
And you'd think the templated ctor would only get instantiated if you actually pass a callable object
(other than something that calls the copy / move ctor)
 
No, since it's unspecified.
 
Hai
 
Xeo
hai hai
 
for the voters, this is most definitely not off-topic. It is about programming in Python, extending Vim — sehe 1 min ago
blind downvoters at it again
 
@sehe Nah -- quite sensible in this case. Anything involving Macs or laptops should be downvoted, and when both are involved, downvoting into oblivion is the proper reaction.
 
6:30 AM
@JerryCoffin oh wow. sounds interesting. As much as I hate patents (a) that sounds cool (b) if you're gonna have them they should be upheld
 
@DiscreteGenius So? "C++: The complete reference" has 4.2 out of 5 starts on amazon, and it is one of the worst C++ books ever. (At least there are 3 reviewers giving it 1 star.) Most people writing reviews about C++ books on amazon simply don't have the required knowledge to judge their quality.
 
Xeo
@sehe I don't see any downvotes. :P
 
@JerryCoffin You've got a point there.
 
@JerryCoffin That's amazing, actually. It seems like a painstaking process, I like to experiment with kernel design and some very low level stuff, but I'm a rendering architect professionally. Your job must be orders of magnitude more difficult since you are not in the process of creation.
Metaphorically, it's always easier to splash something onto the canvas, it's a whole another problem when you're comparing two splashes and looking for repeating patterns (even more so when they're encoded in a format that is not meant for humans). I'm curious, how accurate is the process of discertaining infringement?
 
@Xeo You got a point too. I meant 'negative voters'. In this case a close ote
@DomagojPandža to discertain - neologism of the day? (discern/ascertain?)
 
6:33 AM
@sehe Ahahah, sorry, my bad. I was thinking about something else. I meant ascertaining.
 
@DomagojPandža Well, technically "infringement" is a legal term, so I just look at technical similarity between the product and the patent claims. As long as the claims are clear, it's generally quite accurate. I sometimes do work on copyright and/or trade secret cases, which generally aren't nearly as clear cut.
 
Oh, a new edition of C++ Primer is due in 10 weeks :)
 
Our residential bookworm giving news updates. Thanks!
 
Now if only Stroustrup wrote a new edition of TD&E...
 
Xeo
@FredOverflow I think that's a long ways off
 
6:36 AM
But it's already been 18 years :(
 
@FredOverflow didn't know E. Moo is also involved in that book
 
I'd love to see a new edition of TD&E. My copy is falling apart, unfortunately.
 
@DomagojPandža Must be something about it that attracts damage -- mine's in pretty rough shape too (much worse than others at least as old that I'm pretty sure I refer to more often).
 
Xeo
@JerryCoffin It's the seeping hate from Java and PHP coders all over the world that precisely strikes TD&E books
 
Mine's in pretty good shape, although I read it quite often.
You can always get used copies in good shape from amazon cheaply.
 
6:41 AM
@bamboon Yup -- was on the 2005 edition too.
 
@Xeo Java I can believe. I always figure PHP coders must be the nicest people around, immune to all forms of anger, hatred, disgust, good taste... :-)
 
A C book for 100 bucks? WTF?
 
Hahaha
Apr 8 at 6:10, by Domagoj Pandža
Elementary, the poet says! Perhaps comparable to the concept of integration, or the eternal differentiation? Some will say: "Is he mad?". And to that, the poet says: "Quite, and I'm glad!". For I contemplate the vastness of space, while the cops introduce civilians to mace. It was to preserve peace, they said. Might as well get a maid. How does a maid factor in? Well, she keeps the house clean. Is this... Abstract? A polymorphic start? An interface in design? I do not know, it seems benign.
^ I just realize we met before, @DomagojPandža (although at the time I haven't seen your poetic side. So... the neologism was just poetic license :)
 
@FredOverflow Must be a college textbook.
 
6:44 AM
Hm, it's from 2008, and it's got pretty good reviews. Interesting, never heard of it before.
Well, the first edition is older, but the second edition is from April 2008.
Maybe they'll even release a third edition covering C11? :)
 
@ScottW Some people still write Fortran.
 
@sehe Oh, dear lord, we still can't find the lost space-time continuum, but my poetry floats around. Good to know SO remembers everything!
 
@ScottW No reason to be depressed because there are people in different cultures making other choices.
@DomagojPandža I'm pretty sure it doesn't, but in practice we can pretend it does.
 
If I ever want to get rich, I'll learn PL/I.
 
So, you won't?
 
6:47 AM
Hello2: proc options(main);
    put list ('Hello, world!');
end Hello2;
 
If I ever want to get rich, I'll learn how to steal credit card numbers on the internet.
 
@IntermediateHacker You can have mine: 1234567-OMG
 
seems legit.
 
_seems_ legit
Is the meme
 
I don't even know if credit card numbers have letters in them :)
 
6:49 AM
This one does :)
 
@FredOverflow You'll love it. Must be the only language ever where x=y=0; guarantees that x != y.
@FredOverflow In hex they do.
 
@JerryCoffin So what does x=y=0; mean?
 
It's my physics exam tomorrow. If I want to get rich in the future I could try learning physics. But fuck that boring shit, I'd rather ruin my life.
 
@FredOverflow y=0; x=y maybe
 
@sehe How would that guarantee x != y?
 
6:50 AM
@IntermediateHacker Physics boring? Blasphemy!
 
@FredOverflow Don't ask me? Also: Learn PL/I
 
@FredOverflow In PL/I, the compiler guesses whether = means assignment or comparison, and in this case, the first is assignment and the second comparison, so it's like x=y==0;
 
@IntermediateHacker Hey, a little bit of respect for the most noble science of the universe
 
@JerryCoffin Ah, so if y is 0, x is set to 1?
 
So, if y==0, then x = 1, but if y!= 0, then x = 0.
 
6:52 AM
In my opinion = should always mean comparison, := should be initialization, and <- should be assignment. No more confusion.
 
Or = for initialization/assignment and == for comparison. Amen.
 
and ?! should mean WTF
 
@FredOverflow But you're using two symbols for two of the three. Better to avoid confusion and use only one character apiece (in which case you want to learn APL instead of PL/I).
 
@IntermediateHacker lol
 
@JerryCoffin Ah. That simple. Well Visual Basic had (and probably still has) exactly the same semantics, IIRC
 
6:54 AM
@IntermediateHacker You mean it doesn't already?
 
But seriously, int x(42); for initialization is a bit... strange, isn't it?
 
@sehe Hmm...I'll take your word for it. I think the last BASIC I wrote was probably AppleSoft...
 
WTF/s is already an SI derived unit for measuring code quality. Or the lack there of.
 
@JerryCoffin Basic on the C64 did the same.
 
cue mandatory xkcd reference
 
6:58 AM
If it ain't broken, don't fix it.
 
@FredOverflow BASIC (BASICA, GWBASIC, MSX BASIC) did the same. Duh. It wasn't quite a ECMA standard, but it was a language :)
If it ain't broken, fix it until it is
 
Using = for both assignment and comparison is not that bad an idea. If you don't use a=b further, it's an assignment (because not using the result of a comparison would be stupid), and if you do, it must be a comparison, because having an assignment return something seems like a strange idea, except if you're a C programmer.
 

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