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11:00 AM
oh...
 
Linux is the greater experience ;P
 
@Potatoswatter That's a big advantage of said cloistering, then
@Pubby A week, for every program that I use? That's going to add up, fast. In the meantime, I would be capable of doing exactly nothing with my computer. A rather large loss.
 
Funnily enough, I used to be the same said Windows only person, but then I started learning Linux properly, and it was a fascinating experience
 
not that I actually spend a lot of time being productive on my machine, unfortunately
too easy to whittle away my time in chatrooms and watching TV whenever I want it
 
@DeadMG No, I mean the 'unix' ones.
 
11:02 AM
@DeadMG Linux has the same browers Windows has, so you can browse the interwebs...
 
@Pubby What?
 
unless you want IE
 
@TonyTheLion Great. I'd be learning CLI for... the exact same experience I have on Windows?
 
hey, I can load Chrome on Windows or Chrome on Unix! what a meaningful expression it would be to load it on Unix instead.
 
11:03 AM
so you're not gonna change your mind are you? No matter what we say?
 
well, your arguments have only consisted of "It might not be torture, but it'd still be rather painful and terrible, and at the end, you would have no benefit."
 
oh, is that how you interpreted my arguments?
I never said it will be painful or terrible, you think it's going to be painful and terrible, though you've never really tried it.
 
well, you're suggesting that I invest heavily in time so that I can gain access to inferior or at best, equal, programs in the same areas I use now, and then in a major area, there are simply no equivalents whatsoever
@TonyTheLion I have been forced into using it a few times, you know.
 
@DeadMG If you only spent just as much time doing instead moaning about it in just this room only, you'd know that it isn't accurate.
 
Why do you think they are inferior?
 
11:07 AM
If linux were that 'impossible' to use, nobody would do it. The fact of the matter is: you don't like it. Big f*cking deal :)
 
@Pubby Ask sbi about the experience of debugging with GDB instead of Visual Studio
and all of that makefile ick
 
@sehe Eh. There's always someone willing to do it, no matter how insane.
 
@DeadMG Half granted there. Now, contrast with DDD, Nemiver, Eclipse, vim debugging intergration, Netbeans -- all of which are written on top of the same very good foundation. Try that with WinDbg. It just won't work
 
more importantly, the factors are different for different people
 
11:09 AM
@DeadMG Good. The problem is one of definitions then. If the majority of developers are insane, would you still label their practices 'insane'?
 
if you, say, started out from a position of equal experience, didn't play games, etc, then maybe the comparison would be different
@sehe Absolutely I would.
go back five hundred years, and every doctor would be trying to cure your cold with leeches and eating duck's feet. Is that insane? Absolutely.
 
Less games might be a good thing ;)
 
@DeadMG not necessarily, they just didn't know any better back then
 
@DeadMG So, that's the core of the problem. While discussing these topics, you habitually ignore that saying 'linux is impossible', 'shitty command line interfaces' etc. etc. It's just not true: for people 'like' you, perhaps, but that amounts to saying...
 
appeal to the majority is a logical fallacy
 
11:10 AM
... 'aw crap, for some reason I never get the hang of it. I really don't like them'
 
@sehe I only said that it was true for me.
 
@DeadMG Trying to decide the best OS in terms of logical absolutes is also quite wrong.
 
@Potatoswatter What, logic has no place in ... the software I choose to use?
 
@DeadMG Labeling things 'insane' is useless as it is normative. I was rhetorically pointing that out by questioning 'what is insane', I didn't appeal to majority; I questioned your definition of insane.
 
@DeadMG The best OS for you will likely be decided by your employer, at some point in the not-too-distant future.
 
11:12 AM
@DeadMG I don't have time to quote you on that, but I'm sure I can quote at least 50 different instances where you totally lost that distinction. In a big way
 
And it really doesn't matter much, since they're all essentially the same. All current OSes are part of the same competitive marketplace.
Yes, programs really work the same way on all of them. There's nothing to learn.
 
@Potatoswatter Except games, which just don't work on Linux.
 
@Potatoswatter That resonates with me. For that reason, I'm not even complaining about windows: you can have what you want on windows pretty easily too these dyas.
 
There are some great games on Linux
 
although I will admit that is hardly the core of my argument
 
11:14 AM
@DeadMG Sigh. Saves me making the argument :)
 
@Pubby Yeah, I'm sure. If you define "some" to be, like, "Two or three, maybe."
as opposed to Windows, which is "Pretty much all of them."
 
@DeadMG I have 10 installed, which is about as many I played on Windows.
 
@DeadMG How many games do you need anyway. Also, it isn't linux's fault that none makes them. It just makes it clear that Linux wasn't intended as a game platform. Like, Solaris, AIX, HP/UX, Tru64, OpenVMS etc
 
you'd have a much better shot at arguing Mac- there is at least some drive and effort to get games working on Macs
 
@DeadMG Who cares about games. We are chosing OS-es as developers, not as gamers?
 
11:16 AM
Oh, don't forget emulators. You've got 1000s of old games on Linux.
 
@Pubby That doesn't really make them "great". I'll admit that I'm hardly the Unix expert here, but I am most assuredly a game expert, and I can assure you that the vast, vast majority of games which are worth the time explicitly state Windows only.
 
@DeadMG Yes. Linux is no good if you just want to play new releases.
 
@sehe I'm both.
 
@DeadMG Um, it makes sense not to use a toy for work.
 
@Pubby Well, it's funny how this works. Ten years ago, I played the games that were out then, and I'm done with them. I have neither need nor desire to play them yet again- if they even work. How'd you like to go back to a ten-year-old version of GCC? That'd be a laugh :P
@Potatoswatter Who said anything about that? This is my personal machine we're talking about.
 
11:19 AM
@DeadMG What you use for play, is by definition a toy.
It would make sense to have two machines for two unrelated tasks.
 
@Potatoswatter A general-purpose device, like a computer, can be many things.
my personal machine is both a development machine and a gaming machine
also a media hub
 
@DeadMG Have you played DF, MC, OpenTTD, Crawl, Wesnoth, Star Control 2? All of them are in my top 10 and they are all on Linux.
 
and a communications device
 
I'm familiar with that concept. Just saying that it would make sense to consider the alternative of optimizing these tasks separately.
 
@Pubby There are many games which share the SC2 acronym. You might wish to expand it.
 
11:22 AM
And again, when you are issued machines by your future employers, they will probably not be used for games.
 
@Potatoswatter Still talking about my home machine here.
and even as a development exclusive box, I'd rather stick with Visual Studio
I need their concurrency libraries more than I need variadic templates
 
Hmm, what happened to the Lego site? It's not on my site list anymore.
 
@DeadMG What concurrency library is windows-only?
 
the MS one
based on ConcRT
 
@Potatoswatter Microsoft ship the PPL. It's kinda like TBB, but it comes with VS.
 
11:25 AM
I thought TBB was free.
 
I don't think so
I mean, this is my memory we're talking about, so it's hardly the epitome of accuracy
but I seem to recall looking at it and not finding any free version
 
rofl
 
Looks like they've mastered the art of making it more attractive to PHBs by attaching a price to a free product.
 
11:28 AM
PHBs?
personal... home... businesses?
 
pointy-haired bosses. Who want to buy a support program that nobody will use, and nobody competent would ever need.
 
The pointy-haired boss (often abbreviated to just PHB or "The Boss") is Dilbert's boss in the Dilbert comic strip. He is notable for his micromanagement, gross incompetence and unawareness of his surroundings, yet somehow retains power in the workplace. In the Dilbert TV series, in which he is voiced by comedian Larry Miller, the character is notably smarter (although still quite stupid and inept) and more openly corrupt. He is also parodied in Bee Movie as Dean Buzzwell, also voiced by Larry Miller. In Dilbert The PHB's real name is unknown in the comic, although in one episode of the...
 
ah
well
iTunes for Windows is an absolute crime
 
what makes you say that?
 
it's well known that iTunes for Windows is horrific
 
11:31 AM
iTunes has never been a very good product. I'm sort of amazed Apple's always been able to get away with it. Still, I've been a user since 1.0.
 
0
A: Does int * & has any real sense?

Petar MinchevWith int* &x you are passing the same pointer(by reference). Otherwise with only int* x you are passing a copy of the pointer and then you can't change the original one in the function. &x makes x an alias of the original parameter.

> There is no difference whatsoever between int*&x, int*& x, int* &x, int *&x, int* & x, int *& x, int * &x and int * & x.
Did I forget a combination? :)
 
@Potatoswatter I would use something else, but my iPhone cries if no iTunes
 
I count 8, that makes a powerset.
 
@FredOverflow lol
 
@FredOverflow What about int *&x, int* &x, and suchlike?
 
11:32 AM
@Potatoswatter Right, at each location, there can either be a space or not. And since there's 3 locations, 2^3 = 8 seems to be all of them.
@DeadMG Multiple consecutive spaces obviously don't make a difference. But feel free to add them as well ;)
 
what about int * & x ?
 
@FredOverflow All I'm saying is that it makes much more sense to say "Spacing is irrelevant" than to attempt to enumerate all equivalent declarations.
 
Wait, is this legal in C? *& x
 
no
C doesn't know references
 
11:33 AM
@Pubby As an expression, yes. As a declaration, no.
 
@Pubby As a declarator or as an expression?
 
There's int * (&x) and int *& (x).
 
Declaration
 
nope
 
@Potatoswatter I have to admit, I'm also rather concerned about the quality of Unix operating system APIs.
I cringe every time I see a Unix question involving stat or select or some other nothing function name
 
11:36 AM
In Windows XP, why do I need both the "Administrator" account (which I can only log into in safe mode) and a normal account with Adiministrator rights? What's the difference?
 
it's mostly C, so I guess you cannot expect any better
 
@DeadMG That's POSIX. Agreed it's generally awful, but they came from academic types who mostly were aware of the mistakes to avoid, and they work everywhere.
 
though Window's Win32 API is also not the greatest
CALLBACK and HRESULT and LPVOID aren't the nicest to work with either
 
@FredOverflow why can you only log in as administrator in safe mode?
 
though HRESULT is more COM actually
@FredOverflow I think in the normal account, your admin rights aren't on by default, you have 'run as Admin' to get them
 
11:38 AM
@AlfPSteinbach I have no bloody idea, but the "Administrator" account does not shup up on normal boot.
 
@Potatoswatter What, like the OpenGL people? Their API is a complete crime.
 
in the admin account, you don't have to, but I may be wrong
@DeadMG it may be a crime, but works
 
@TonyTheLion But I have an account with admin rights, and I tried to remove the rights, but Windows said that I need at least one account with admin rights.
 
@FredOverflow they started fucking it up in Windows Vista, it was the OS custom tailored to the requirements of the US movie industry
 
@DeadMG Huh? How did we get from POSIX to OpenGL?
 
11:39 AM
@Potatoswatter Well, for a start, if I wanted to work in graphics in POSIX, I'd have to use OpenGL instead of DirectX
 
@Potatoswatter he does that, it's a jumptable in his head with random jumps :P
 
@Potatoswatter At least we didn't get from POSIX to POOSEX ;)
4
 
and secondly, OpenGL is supposed to be also full of experts and industry standards, and it's full of horrific mistakes
 
Design by Committee
 
11:40 AM
@DeadMG POSIX is an interface for low-level OS services, such as files, memory mapping, network interfaces. There is no "graphics in POSIX."
Design by Committee is the right way to define a programming interface, be it a language or an API, because it's more important to avoid mistakes than to be clever (which is what individuals are good at).
 
@DeadMG That's quite a narrow view. From one specific usage OpenGL may seem indeed like a horrid thing, but don't forget the OpenGL API is constructed from input coming from many industries and many clients that do their thing this way. The nicest API for CAD programs may be extremely ugly for games and vice versa, so you have to compromise
 
@KillianDS That is no excuse for having GL_POINT and GL_POINTS, and suchlike things.
 
@DeadMG That is what legacy buys you, I'm sure in the early beginnings switching between different types of primitive drawing was a very sensible thing to do :P.
 
@Potatoswatter Ok, let me put it another way. If I was running a non-Windows OS, I'd have to use OpenGL.
@KillianDS As far as I'm aware, the two constants are completely unrelated. However, more importantly, there's no reason whatsoever for them to have such "Please, dear God, make a typo" similar names
 
@DeadMG POSIX runs not only non-Windows desktop systems, but also embedded and pretty much anything with a filesystem and a C compiler. So often there's nowhere to put graphics at all.
 
11:46 AM
I know that, but since I only run a desktop, and if I wanted to do graphics programming on said desktop, I would have to use OpenGL.
 
If you wanted to do things portably, you'd use OpenGL. I'm sure there are various other proprietary platforms.
 
0
A: Does int * & has any real sense?

FredOverflowint& f(int*& x) { *x = 5; // note: changes the pointee, not the pointer return *x; } In this example, you don't gain anything by passing the pointer by reference, since you're not changing the pointer. Passing a pointer by reference is only needed when you intend to c...

behold my stupid example
 
OpenGL is not that bad.
 
Ah, you only care about programming the one machine. So not only is it for work and play, it also represents what the customer is using.
 
@Potatoswatter As I said, it's my personal machine
 
11:49 AM
@DeadMG hm, now I'm wondering where you actually use GL_POINT?
 
@KillianDS No idea. All I know is that there was someone in here who couldn't work out why his program wasn't working, until he discovered that he had used one instead of the other.
 
@DeadMG Yet, it would also make sense to have several machines at home, even if maybe you own only one. Others could be owned by employers or clients.
 
it might not even be named that, but I do know that they were identical except for the S
 
It's probably long since gone from the core profile.
 
I've had GL_POINT waste many hours of debugging before
 
11:51 AM
@Potatoswatter I have neither an employer nor clients- and even if I did, I would get a professional machine to deal with them.
 
you'd get a machine to deal with your customers?
you could ask bot...
 
if I had customers, I'd be a business, and so yes, I would have a separate home and work computer
 
If you run app under GL debugger, you can pinpoint places where you've used wrong enumerator. Or you can use higher-level wrapper.
 
@DeadMG True, that is a problem, but that also has many to do with legacy. Strong-typed enums would solve things like that perfectly, but such constructs weren't simply available at the moment of creation. Also, I'd be surprised if glError() wouldn't return something sensible at that point.
 
Which is probably what you're going to do anyway, for a portable software.
 
11:52 AM
@DeadMG I was being silly, damnit
 
I don't recall GDebugger catching GL_POINT error, could be wrong though
 
I use one computer for work and home.
 
I use N computers for work and home
lol
 
@KillianDS I don't care about the cause. What I care about is that DirectX has strongly typed pointers, and I can throw in (one, tiny) custom deleter and make all the generic smart pointer libraries work just fine, and OpenGL doesn't.
 
@DeadMG with one thing I do agree, OpenGL could certainly use a standardized up-to-date C++ frontend. That would also save a lot of state hassle and bring clarity in those Object functions and other similar problems
 
11:57 AM
C is the root of many evils
 
C is also the root of many goods.
 
and I don't just mean "It doesn't have RAII", but fundamental problems like no namespaces, etc
 
@DeadMG which pointers are you talking about? I don't think OpenGL uses pointers anywhere in the API, a lot of int handles yes, but pointers?
 
@KillianDS Yeah, that's the problem. Weakly typed int handles.
Can I std::unique_ptr<GLUint>? No.
will the compiler catch it if I pass it to the wrong place? No.
can I std::unique_ptr<ID3D11Device>? Yes.
 
Ell
Why dont they use a strong typedef?
 
11:58 AM
will the compiler catch if it if I pass it to a function expecting a texture? Yes.
 
@DeadMG Ah, then I do agree :), I wrap those in specific RAII classes and having that native instead of my own (probably bug-ridden) implementation would be great :)
 
@Ell Does C have strong typedefs? :)
@DeadMG To be fair, RAII didn't exist yet when OpenGL was invented, right?
 
Ell
@FredOverflow good point, but you can mimic them cant you?
 
@FredOverflow I'm not entirely sure, but I'm pretty sure that the compiler catching errors did.
 
@Ell Well, you can embed an int in a custom struct.
 
12:00 PM
There are strongly typed wrappers around OpenGL, that's not a problem.
2
Unless you really want something to complain about.
 
@CatPlusPlus Do you have any that are still quite low level and not try to be a full-blown game engine? I' m looking for that for some time
 
OGLplus.
Header-only.
 
AH, I'll look into it, thank you :), didn't find that one up until now.
 
@CatPlusPlus Yeah, you're right. The problem is that such problems are completely systemic, and I'd just be hoping to find a useful wrapper for every API I needed.
I actually had a pleasant surprise yesterday, because HWND is actually strongly typed and not a void*.
 
@Potatoswatter 55 rep/answer here ;)
 
Does anyone know the errors that occur if you try to run a Makefile with dependencies that don't exist?
 
Probably build errors :D
 
"no way to build <filename>"?
or something like that
 
I thought so.. I can't think of a long winded answer.
 
@DeadMG Everytime I read that message my brains wants to turn it into a story about a Chinese named 'wong'.
 
12:16 PM
what? Why would you think of a long winded answer to your own question?
 
lol
 
I've been a given a question to do with that. I know asking homework questions is frowned upon, I just thought I may have missed something.
 
nothing wrong with asking homework questions, as long as you make it clear that it's homework
 
And thank you @StackedCroo @jalf
 
Might lead to runtime errors if it depends on non-existing shared libraries.
 
12:18 PM
and I still don't understand. Your homework is to describe the error that occurs if you run a makefile with missing dependencies?
 
Education is a changing thing.
 
Well. I've been given an example makefile. And the question is like, 'Assume every occurrence of <filename> has been removed. When can this cause problems?''
And other targets are dependent on this file which is to be removed from the makefile
 
well, if a rule in a makefile has dependencies, make will first try to find another rule for building the missing dependency, and if not, complain that it's missing a dependency
so if the removed file is one that was (or can be) generated by make, it'll just be rebuilt
 
Find other rules within the makefile? Or try and resolve it itself?
 
what do you mean by "try and resolve it itself"?
 
12:24 PM
if there arent any other rules will make will try and resolve the dependency itself somehow?
*will make try
 
"somehow"?
 
nope, the rules are how it tries to resolve dependencies on missing files
 
if you don't have any idea of how that might be, then the answer is almost certainly "No"
 
there's no magic
 
also, I srsly need sleep
 
12:25 PM
make does have some implicit rules, telling it how to create certain file types from others
 
I don't think there are any other rules that make could use.. hmm
 
was awake for 20 hours yesterday, but only managed to sleep for 6hrs
 
but they're still just rules. They're not listed in the makefile though
but if I were you, I'd just experiment with it. You've got the makefile, so try removing files and see what happens
 
good idea.. thanks
 
Anybody here remember this one?
I just stumbled over it again on youtube
 
12:28 PM
@AlfPSteinbach I'm not so familiar with the band.
I know they are famous.
 
Ell
gorrilas?
just a guess from the thumbnail
 
@Ell yes
 
Ell
oh ka-ching that was tekers (however you spell that)
i love this song :D
is c++ context free?
 
Ell
brb
 
Ell
12:52 PM
i cant understand why we need to distinguish between lexing and parsing?
 
Because they are both different things.
If you lex something that doesn't mean you'll parse it.
 
Ell
so we get a list of tokens when we lex, but we can parse without lexing can't we?
 
@Ell sure, if you make the parser do the lexing
 
Which will be a real pain in the ass most of the timeā€¦
 
Ell
i have tried sooo many times to understand lexing & parsing but it confuses me every time!
 
12:55 PM
it's just separation of concerns. There's a difference between going "w..h..i..l..e.... that's the while keyword!"
and then doing actual parsing
which means acting on the meaning of the while keyword
the former is lexing
it's just something tedious you want to get out of the way to avoid complicating your parser
 
Ell
hmm kk
I know you can't parse with a regex, but can you lex?
 
that's how it's often done, yes
which is another reason to separate them. Lets you use simpler tools for the lexing
 
Ell
I don't understand how you lex with a regex though, do you lex the entire input? or split on spaced? What if a token uses whitespace?
 
@Ell depends on the language, obviously, but I can't think of a language (other than whitespace) where tokens may use whitespace
for each is two tokens, not one, for example
iirc
been a while since I fiddled with parsers
or lexers
 
Ell
hmm okay
 

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