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12:01 AM
@KerrekSB A little Googling suggests that it's probably @KonradRudolph.
 
Oh that. There is a tiny url for that. Something like "fuck_pointers" or sumtin
 
user142019
Man.
 
^ taht
 
user142019
I’m bored.
 
user142019
12:02 AM
@sehe I use hyphens when possible; looks nicer.
 
user142019
@JerryCoffin yes, he created it.
 
@JerryCoffin Very perceptive!
@CatPlusPlus Brilliant
 
user1357851
But C++ without pointers & delete will look like java
 
user1804599
@Telkitty huh? C++ with new will look like Java.
 
user1357851
and if you keep on adding util libraries, it will look like C# - both spots taken
 
user1357851
12:13 AM
edited :x
 
Hahahaha the title xDDD
 
@Telkitty Yeah, right.
Sure.
 
C++ with new and delete looks like Java.
 
If you think C++ code needs delete to look like C++ code, you need to go learn C++.
 
user142019
Man, I used Java for the last few days and I love it.
 
user142019
12:14 AM
</trollmode>
 
rofl
 
@Telkitty It'll look entirely different from Java is what you meant.
 
well timed </trollmode>, I was just about to unleash the big guns
 
user142019
I have Java class next week. Please kill me.
 
12:15 AM
I'll give you a nasty voodoo curse (warning: effectiveness not guaranteed)
 
@Zoidberg'-- Make sure it's in a file of its own name.
 
user142019
@DeadMG oh voodoo. I can do that myself, just a voodoo doll with my hair and I push a pink pin in it. Pink pin means death. According to WikiHow.
 
user1357851
Java is not too bad, I hate all the exception blocks that's about it
 
hmm
how much detail to go into shit on my CV?
 
user142019
@Telkitty Java is not too bad? What are you smoking? Rasmus’ blood?
 
user142019
12:17 AM
@DeadMG if the recruiters cannot understand it they will think you have much experience.
 
lol
 
user1357851
It is just like C++ without pointers and has compulsary exceptions catching.
 
@Telkitty bwahahahahahahaha.
 
user1357851
@Zoidberg'-- how is java bad?
 
it is like C++ but without every decent feature.
 
user142019
12:18 AM
Java is just like C++, except that it sucks even more, enforces fucking OOP, double penetration design patterns everywhere, and it is even more verbose than Objective-C and Visual Basic combined.
 
user1357851
@DeadMG how many features in C++ that java does not have?
 
@Telkitty Templates.
operator overloading
deterministic destruction
value types
references
 
user142019
A Haskell program is an executable mathematical formula, a Python program is executable pseudocode, a Perl program is executable line noise. That’s all fine; a Java program is an executable law contract.
2
 
first-class function types
 
user1357851
@DeadMG everything is passed by references what are you talking about?
 
12:19 AM
lambdas
@Telkitty Not at all. You cannot refer to a reference. Try writing std::swap in Java- can't be done.
 
user142019
Easy integration with C libraries.
 
user1357851
@DeadMG and what are value types
 
user142019
10000000000000000000000000000000000000 available libraries.
 
user142019
C++ has a name that isn’t terrible.
 
user142019
Free fucking functions.
 
user142019
12:21 AM
Multiple inheritance.
 
user142019
You can choose your own damn filenames.
 
user142019
Java is the single worst language after PHP.
 
user1357851
@Zoidberg'-- C++ has multiple inheritance???
 
user142019
It’s like PHP++.
 
user142019
@Telkitty class fuck : public cunt, public dick {};
 
12:22 AM
PHP is the worst language ever, and Java is the worst language ever designed.
 
user142019
Python has multiple inheritance too.
 
@Telkitty Of course it does. Bring on the diamond shape inheritance tree. We can take it!!!
 
at least Rasmus doesn't pretend to know dafuq he's on about, and he's just "Whatever, I'm not a real programmer."
 
@Zoidberg'-- You haven't seen Cobol.
 
user142019
PHP is shit, Java is PHP++, Objective-C is Java++. And the rest is somewhat decent languages. And then you have Python, Haskell and Erlang, which are terribly awesome.
 
user142019
12:23 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes indeed.
 
@Telkitty Hahaha no
 
no fucking typedef
 
user1357851
@Zoidberg'-- Gosh you really have no ideal about what you are talking about ...
 
IDENTIFICATION DIVISION
 
user142019
@Telkitty I do. I have used all of those languages.
 
12:24 AM
4 mins ago, by Telkitty
@DeadMG and what are value types
you have no idea what you are talking about.
 
We already knew that
@Zoidberg'-- Obj-C is more like C--
 
user142019
@CatPlusPlus I know, still better than Java.
 
@CatPlusPlus C-- == Java++?
 
(Not actual C--)
 
user1804599
Oh my, I have used Java once and it was horrific.
 
12:26 AM
I'll take Java over C any day
 
user142019
I will never take Java over C, ever.
 
hmmm
interesting problem
"Steaming pile of shit" vs "Frozen pile of shit"
 
Java does some things wrong
C does all things wrong
 
think I'd have to toss a coin
 
@DeadMG You can microwave the latter.
 
12:27 AM
Real dilemma is who'll clean the microwave
 
I loled
 
user142019
You know, I will use neither C nor Java.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes But then you've just got steaming shit.
 
user142019
I use Haskell, Erlang, Python and Ruby.
 
@DeadMG I tried really hard not to, because sbi is already asleep.
 
12:27 AM
I barely write any code at all
 
user1357851
@DeadMG Java has primitive types like int and double, it also has wrapper classes like Interger and Double
 
...so?
 
user1357851
@CatPlusPlus we can tell
 
user1357851
>_<
 
user142019
@Telkitty so what? C++ has int and double too, you can also wrap them if you are an idiot.
 
12:28 AM
@Telkitty The very fact that wrapper classes are necessary tells you what a steaming pile of shit you're dealing with.
 
@Telkitty I still know more than you think you know
 
user142019
And guess what, .equals. Oh my fucking God what the fuck was wrong with the idiot who designed Java. Why does it even have non-function-call operators?
 
user1357851
@CatPlusPlus you would like to think that @_@
 
@Aardvark - wacht even nog meer Nederlanders? Episch indied
 
man
I need to sleep, but I need to write more my CV.
 
12:29 AM
@Zoidberg'-- What?
 
C++ has unconstrained variables. Every object can be a variable, and every kind of variable can be an object.
In Java, objects are never variables.
 
user142019
@CatPlusPlus mystring.equals(myotherstring) instead of == because == compares references.
 
user142019
or isEqual or whatever it was called.
 
@Zoidberg'-- I know that, I'm referring to your sentence
 
user142019
Why not == and is, like Python has.
 
user142019
12:29 AM
.equals is way too verbose.
 
Yes, the default behaviour is bad, but a method for the other thing vs syntax-level operator is really not that important
 
user1357851
@DeadMG Yes some chat rooms are like drugs we are too addicted and they steal our time like a highly trained thief in broad day light
 
@KerrekSB They're all objects. :shh:
@KerrekSB What?
 
@DeadMG Needs moar CV?
 
@CatPlusPlus Not all variables are objects in C++, and in Java never. In Java, variables are always references.
 
C++ actually defines object
 
In C++, references are never objects.
 
@KerrekSB References are variables
 
@KerrekSB Wrong!
 
@Borgleader Why would you fork out the ridiculous sum of money that costs?
 
12:32 AM
@KerrekSB Java has pointers, not references :P
 
Java has references, but they're passed around by value
 
just buy the normal edition like everyone else
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I know, I know.
 
user142019
@sehe next week I have Java at school in Rotterdam. Since you’re near Rotterdam, could you troost me? :P
 
Terminology be hard
> The constructs in a C++ program create, destroy, refer to, access, and manipulate objects. An object is a
region of storage.
 
12:32 AM
@Zoidberg'-- No.
 
WHAT NOW
 
@CatPlusPlus Right. But not objects.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Wait, you're staying with the ape?
 
user142019
@sehe :<
 
The thing is, Java has the same scoping rules as C++, and automatic variables do go out of scope and get destructed. It's just that the variables can never be objects.
 
12:33 AM
Well, yes, names live in a different space than objects
 
user142019
I’m going to write an iPhone app tomorrow.
 
The power of C++ essentially comes from the magic control flow that you get from automatic object destruction. It's like someone taking care of a really complicated set of gotos for you.
 
In Python we even outright call them names and not variables
There is no spoon variable
 
@KerrekSB Nice.
 
@CatPlusPlus Hehe, quite.
 
12:36 AM
@DeadMG He let me stay here while his kids are away. The flat search has not been going well :(
 
user1357851
Yeah that's what Java & C# try to improve upon: memory management
 
I should got to bed soon though.
 
@Telkitty And it's an amusing failure.
 
user1357851
even sucker objective c removed autorelease
 
@Telkitty Sadly, they nerf management of every other kind of resource.
 
user142019
12:37 AM
@Telkitty Objective-C didn’t remove autorelease. Stop with not knowing what you are talking about.
 
@Telkitty There's nothing to improve. Those languages first rob you of any sensible way of programming and then kindly offer you a hand with the memory management.
 
user1357851
@DeadMG more newb friendly in my opinion
 
user142019
ARC ≠ remove autorelease. It is remove release.
 
user1357851
@R.MartinhoFernandes you can still delete stuff in finally block in java
 
Obj-C is hilariously bad, even more than Java/C# combined
 
user142019
12:38 AM
Objective-C > Java
 
No, Java resource management was mad-bad before try-with-resources, and only bad now
 
user142019
At least it has free functions and lambdas.
 
@Telkitty It's so noob friendly to have to go down to malloc/free when dealing with any resource except JVM memory.
 
C# has using but it's only slightly better
 
What I said above is the verbose form of "C++ doesn't produce garbage". With unconstrained variables, there is no such thing as garbage, and hence no need for collection. (There's an exception to this.)
 
12:39 AM
Telkitty, you're so badly outclassed here, it's kinda amusing.
 
user1357851
I hate C#
 
it's like running a marathon, except everybody else trained for twelve months and you just turned up and tried to run it.
 
user142019
I like Python’s with.
 
user1357851
just hate
 
user1357851
no reasons
 
12:39 AM
C#: Java, but we made it suck significantly less.
 
If Java didn't have checked exceptions, execute-around idiom would be more viable
Since now it has lambdas
I don't find C# much better than Java tbh
 
I thought lambdas were still roadmapped for like, Java 8 or 9 or something.
 
It has LINQ and delegates and the like, but it's still mad annoying to write, especially if you don't want IDE
Java 8
 
I know very little about C#. I once read about a third of the C# 2.0 spec and then felt sad for a week.
 
isn't that "In the future" rather than "Has"?
 
12:40 AM
But there's still broken exceptions everywhere
It's set in stone
 
user1357851
@KerrekSB .net 2 you mean
 
I still don't know much abou the language, but simply the quality of the standards document was shocking.
 
@Telkitty No, he doesn't mean.
 
No, C# 2.0
 
user142019
@Telkitty No, C# 2.0.
 
user1357851
12:41 AM
but C++ has exception catching too :x
 
user142019
C# ≠ .NET, you know.
 
@KerrekSB How, exactly?
 
I'm not talking about exception catching
Every language with exceptions has exception catching
 
user142019
@Telkitty Of course. Exceptions without catching is exit(1) and that is idiotic as fuck.
 
@Telkitty No, the actual C# language ECMA standard.
 
12:42 AM
Because contrary to some lunatics' opinion, it is a control flow mechanism
 
@CatPlusPlus I fundamentally agree.
 
@Zoidberg'-- I see your exit(1), and raise you a finally block.
 
that "Exceptions is for exceptional circumstances" stuff is bullshit.
 
@DeadMG It was extremely ... sloppy? Very colloquial, very little structure. It was almost like a tutorial mixed with a bit of normative stuff.
 
user142019
@CaptainGiraffe haha “raise”.
 
12:42 AM
You use big words, dawg
 
@Zoidberg'-- thanks =)
 
user142019
Exceptions are for whenever you cannot return an object.
 
Standards are bad
No, exceptions are for whenever you need to interrupt execution
 
that
 
After reading the exceptionally well-crafted C++11 standard (which is also visually beautiful, but just very cleanly structured), that thing came off as a total mess. It constantly makes reference to things that haven't been defined yet.
 
12:43 AM
They have nothing to do with returning anything
 
@Telkitty No.
 
user1357851
like file
 
"Exceptions" is just a bad name all around
 
ECMA is for people with money, ISO is for people with time.
 
Then I remembered that it was crafted by the same people who gave us the 6000+ pages OpenXML "standard", also courtesy of your friendly ECMA.
@LucDanton Haha, so it would seem. Or rather, ECMA is for anyone who can make them feel relevant...
 
12:44 AM
It'd be more suitable if they were called "interruptions"
 
user142019
Haskell > everything.
 
@DeadMG The artbook itself is worth 30$. The game another 40$, the soundtrack another 10-20$ the rest is bonus.
 
user1357851
exception needs to be caught for any null pointer returned, happy now?
 
Is there now an ISO standard for C#?
 
Probably not
 
user142019
12:44 AM
@Telkitty how the fuck are exceptions related to null pointers?
 
There is an ISO standard for Ruby though, so you can see where the quality went
 
user142019
ISO is terrible.
 
user142019
They charge money for free documents.
 
Consider a regular stack that throws an stack_item exception for every item you pop. When the stack is empty it throws an stack_empty exception. This turns out to be very elegant code. Very unidiomatic, but still elegant.
 
user142019
Which are already outdated the day they get released.
 
12:45 AM
@Zoidberg'-- That's so nobody can own the standard ;-)
 
Actually not very practical to throw exceptions on empty stack.
 
Only direct clients of the stack are interested in a failure.
 
@CatPlusPlus The resulting calling code is extremely readable.
 
@KerrekSB The C++ standard does that too, btw.
@KerrekSB The C++ standard does that too, btw (e.g. §3.9.3 refers to §8.3.4).
 
An empty stack is not a failure.
 
12:47 AM
It would be more readable with tagged return values and pattern matching
E.g.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes The C++ standard is very careful when it does so. Usually that would happen in non-normative notes and examples, and always with the proper reference. I never felt completely lost reading the C++ standard.
 
Okay, not gonna write it, but you should be able to imagine it
 
@KerrekSB No, it's not.
 
It's still done in an organized fashion.
 
You're misrepresenting it.
 
user142019
12:48 AM
case foo of
    {ok, Value} -> do_something(Value);
    {error, Error} -> fuck(Error)
end
 
Let me check
 
It occurs all the time in normative text.
 
@CatPlusPlus No, please write it.
 
user142019
Acceptable way of error handling to me, as pattern match fails do something terribly fucked-up.
 
Have to concur, forward references do happen.
 
12:48 AM
Okay, Haskell incoming
 
In C they make them explicit. Perhaps not all of them though.
 
That's what makes it so damn hard to read.
 
There is no problem understanding §3.9.3 without chasing the reference.
 
@KerrekSB Except you have no idea what an array type is, right?
 
user142019
I am in a terrible mood.
 
12:49 AM
data StackReturn a = Empty | Item a
pop :: Stack a -> StackReturn a
someFunction ... = handle (pop someStack)
handle Empty = ...
handle (Item x) = ...
(That's Maybe but whatever)
 
@Zoidberg'-- You look very cute.
 
Also maybe with case like in daknok's example
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes There's no mention of "array" in §3.9.3...?!
 
user142019
@CaptainGiraffe thank you very little.
 
I prefer functions usually
 
12:50 AM
@KerrekSB I'm looking at it...
 
(That'd be hidden function in where bindings but irrelevant)
 
@CatPlusPlus This is just being functional
 
user142019
My example was wrong, by the way.
 
user1357851
how is reference implemented, isn't it just a null checked pointer initialized with a pointer to an object/thing?
 
user142019
foo is an atom and matches is neither {ok, _} nor {error, _}.
 
12:51 AM
The word "array" occurs 7 times in §3.9.3.
 
Reference is a reference
 
@Zoidberg'-- fuck(Error) - love it.
 
user1357851
...
 
Seriously, you make it sound like you have not read much of the thing.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Oh, wait, I mis-searched.
 
12:52 AM
@Zoidberg'-- Fuck. "Atom"? You sound like PROLOG.
 
user142019
function_that_may_fail() ->
    case foo() of % This is correcter.
        {ok, Value} -> do_something(Value);
        {error, Error} -> io:format("~s", [Error])
    end.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well, OK, there are lots of references, but they never disrupt the organisation of the text.
 
I'd almost bet that pages without forward references are the exception.
 
They use manually interned strings for some reason
And call them atoms
(But seriously, implementation of references is dependent on implementation and doesn't matter whatsoever)
 
There's a method to the presentation that establishes all the material in a way that's not frustrating to follow.
 
12:53 AM
(And no, they're never null-checked, because null references are UB)
 
user142019
Atoms are hardly used for anything else than pattern matching or tagging.
 
@KerrekSB That's subjective, so I'll accept your opinion and file it in your case file.
whistles
 
@CatPlusPlus There is a lot of legwork involved in making a reference 0.
 
user142019
area(square, W) -> W * W;
area(rectangle, {W, H}) -> W * H;
area(circle, R) -> R * R * math:pi().
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Whatever it is, the difference with the C# document was so striking that I immediately noticed it and got exasperated pretty quickly...
 
12:54 AM
int &r = *((int*)nullptr);
 
user142019
Calling area(rectangle, {2, 4}) returns 8.
 
Maybe that's retroactively clouded my view of the C++ text...
 
@KerrekSB Then don't read the Unicode Standard. You'll probably have a heart attack.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I wasn't planning it :-)
 
@Zoidberg'-- yep. That looks deliberate to most eyes =)
 
12:55 AM
That's one thing I'm very happy to leave to someone competent.
 
Then there's references to deleted things
 
@CatPlusPlus No theres not. We use RAII for everything .
 
The other day sbi asked me if the guys at work know I am an "Unicode expert" (sic). I never asked for this :( I don't want this! :(
 
int *a = new int; int &b = *a; delete a;
 
user142019
@R.MartinhoFernandes delete this hurray! you got rid of this!
 
12:56 AM
room topic changed to Lounge<C++>: BREAKING: Robot is an Unicode expert. [c++] [c++11] [c++-faq] [meow]
 
Too late, it's on the news so it's true
 
@CatPlusPlus the svn commit will be followed by a professional killer.
 
@CatPlusPlus You're not Fox, so I don't trust you.
 
Fox is not credible
 
user142019
12:57 AM
The SVN committer will be killed by a professional killer because he uses a terrible VCS.
 
user1357851
CatNews
 
user1357851
Pus++ reporter 4 CatNews
 
@Zoidberg'-- Says the git fanboy
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Adam Jensen? Is that you?
 
user142019
Merging in SVN is a pain and a terrible experience.
 
user142019
12:59 AM
And version control without merging is as terrible as folders and tarballs.
 
Have you ever merged in SVN or are you just repeating what other people said
 
user142019
I have merged.
 
yes that extra temporary is a huge strain on your fs.
 
user1357851
@Zoidberg'-- I have merged 4 people's stuff with mine own all at the same time
 

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