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4:00 PM
@DeadMG being a genius
the usual stuff, ya know
 
note to self
 
Als
@TonyTheTiger: No sex talks eh..naughty tiger?
 
if you intend to boot into an operating system that isn't the current one
you may have to actually ask the motherboard to do that and not boot straight into the new one
 
7 mins ago, by Tony The Tiger
@sbi I have a fixation on sex? Woah, didn't know that :P
@DeadMG lol
 
@EtiennedeMartel you show up late ;) What happened yesterday?
 
Als
4:01 PM
@TonyTheTiger: Fixation or Obsession?
oh oh both teh same
 
good thing i'm an Expert™ on dealing with these things
@RMartinhoFernandes genius!
 
woah, funny how we always end up talking about my obsession with sex, what about your guy's obsessions? Or you don't have any?
 
sbi
> There was a pregnant pause. It gave birth to a lot of little pauses, each one more deeply embarrassing than its parent.
 
4:03 PM
yours is just funnier
 
sbi
@DeadMG And sexier.
 
but
 
sbi
@DeadMG butt?
 
I would argue that the rest of you make fun of my obsession about being a Genius™ and Expert™
 
@sbi I'm sorry for killing your productivity by posting that link to Pratchett quotes.
 
4:04 PM
although I don't see why, since I am
 
sbi
@DeadMG Actually we're not making fun of your obsession. We're making fun of you.
 
technicalities
 
@DeadMG your conviction that you are, is what's so funny about this
 
I have faith in myself
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes Too late. I'm already deep into sourcery.
 
4:05 PM
@DeadMG seems like it
 
sbi
@DeadMG At least someone has.
 
ohhh that was harsh
 
you just make it worse...
 
4:06 PM
@DeadMG Or, perhaps you're overcompensating for an inferiority complex. If so, I'll reassure you: you don't need to develop a complex about it. You really are inferior. :-)
 
oh, damn.... someone just got dissed!!
 
disrespected
 
It's a word.
 
4:07 PM
yeah in 1990
 
what's this
 
@JerryCoffin owwwch
 
someone knows why some vendors ship "PIC" libraries for 32bit?
i thought 32bit doesn't need PIC libraries specially designed
 
@TonyTheTiger Hah. I spit in the general direction of their harshness! :-) (Monty Python trumps Pratchett any day!).
 
4:10 PM
@JohannesSchaublitb, some think that PIC is needed for having .so. It is really only needed to be able to share the library between processes.
 
@TonyTheTiger Position Independent Code.
 
this website says "Portability issues arise when a build system assumes that position dependent code can be linked into a shared library. Because of architectural peculiarities this assumption is fine on a x86 system, but invalid on many others, including amd64."
 
@JerryCoffin hahah
 
@JohannesSchaublitb The need or non need of PIC is more a property of the OS (which is able or not to do the needed relocation) than the processor.
 
what the hell is PIC?
 
4:12 PM
@JohannesSchaublitb It seems to me that they confuse things
 
@TonyTheTiger Position Independent Code. Once popular on PDP-11, carried forward into the 68K and such. A Pointless Idiotic Coding technique on a modern system.
 
@JerryCoffin oh I see
 
Als
@JerryCoffin: When was this?
 
PDP-11 was popular in the 70s and the 80s.
 
@Als Which? The PDP-11? The 1970's or so was when it was popular. It was still available up through 2000 or so though.
 
4:15 PM
a new fear
 
@TonyTheTiger There's a simple cure for that: never buy anything from Apple.
 
That works for me.
 
General Q: so, as a 'developer' do you still have to work with idiots? Or is the world run by `c' students in "dev-dev-land" too? argh
 
Als
@JerryCoffin: I guess it was invented, used and it got extinct while I was blissfully unaware of its existance
 
4:16 PM
isn't PIC needed for .so files?
 
Yes, you have to work with politicians.
 
PIC code can be loaded at different adress and still function correctly. Some of the use can be replaced by relocation but not the sharing between different processes if the processes load the code at different adress.
 
@JohnKaul As noted earlier, "we're all idiots at least 80% of the time." The best you can hope for is working with people who can at least be somewhat intelligent part of the time, not people who really act intelligently all of the time.
 
@JohnKaul What's "dev-dev-land"?
 
4:18 PM
sigh I would love to work with part-time intelligence.
 
@JerryCoffin That's why the tendency is to add addressing mode helping efficient PIC code to processor (amd64 for instance)?
 
@Als Not really extinct even yet (e.g., gcc still has options to produce PIC). It just should be extinct. The point is to be able to load some code at any address without doing relocations, which became a mostly-pointless exercise with the advent of virtual memory.
 
Als
@JerryCoffin: Smells like compile time placement new
 
@AProgrammer No -- that's done to deal with misbegotten systems that still make use of it, even though they should have gotten rid of the dependency decades ago.
 
@JerryCoffin, start adress randomization as security measure is a modern use.
 
4:20 PM
@MartinhoFernandes play on words. "Never-Never-Land" ...peter pan.
 
@TonyTheTiger sad day for cars
 
@AProgrammer But this still doesn't require PIC. It just requires a relocating loader. Even without virtual memory, systems had that decades ago (e.g., when Control Data moved from Scope to NOS, that was one of the big additions).
 
@JerryCoffin And then you don't share code between instances. (But for the security measure, PIC also helps in writing malware).
 
@JerryCoffin But why do you consider PIC to be such a bad thing? Why shouldn't the compiler generate position independent code when possible?
seems a pretty sensible thing to do as long as the ISA supports it properly (which x86 doesn't, but x86_64 does, afaik)
 
4:27 PM
@jalf I don't consider PIC a particularly bad thing. I consider depending on it a bad thing, and I consider jumping through hoops to produce it on (for example) x86, a really bad thing.
 
I decided to just bite the bullet, and call the next version 3.0. It
will get released close enough to the 20-year mark, which is excuse
enough for me, although honestly, the real reason is just that I can
no longe rcomfortably count as high as 40. - Linus on why the kernel is now 3.0.x
 
@JerryCoffin ah yeah, agreed there
 
> If you gave a man a fat woman, he'd just have a fat woman for a day, but if you helped a man become very important because he knew the secret of buffaloes and fish, he could get himself as many fat women as he wanted.
 
@AProgrammer That depends. If you give the same code different addresses in different processes, then yes it prevents sharing. If, however, just just pick a random address for each module (DLL, .SO, etc.) and leave it there for all processes, you can share the code just fine. As far as security goes, it's generally enough that the address will be different on my systems than yours.
 
Anyone have a spare fat woman? I want to try this.
4
 
4:31 PM
Er, try what?
 
@Jerry: I don't see how giving the code different addresses prevents sharing
that's what virtual memory mapping is for
 
Giving it to a man, of course.
And see what happens to her one day later.
 
@DeadMG If the code needs to be relocated, it can't be shared.
 
What's with referring to "her" as "it" in this room?
 
@DeadMG if the code isn't position independent, then it relies on being located on specific virtual addresses
 
4:32 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes it's for science, that's why!
 
@DeadMG If you have an absolute address in the code (e.g., the target of a jump), then you need to fix that up when load the code. If it has a different VA in another process, then you have to fix it up differently, in which case that page can't be shared.
 
@JerryCoffin Ensuring that a common address is possible can be hard in 32bits adress space. (That't not true in 64 bit one)
 
so, basically, no pointer constants
 
(But I agree that PIC is overused, well even .so are overused)
 
which would probably disallow most or all complex C++ features like inheritance, exceptions, etc
 
4:34 PM
@DeadMG function addresses as well. Global addresses
 
oh yeah
 
and even just if statements. Where does it branch to? An offset from the instruction pointer (position independent) or a hardcoded address?
 
them too
 
Even PIC code need some relocation. But indirection is used so that the relocation is grouped in a set of page (and sometimes even done dynamically, when it is needed).
 
@AProgrammer Right -- seems to me that adding addressing modes to x64 is a nearly perfect example of the second-system effect.
 
4:36 PM
Wrote my first Chrome plugin. It's ridiculously easy.
 
afaik, one of the nifty things AMD added to x64 is the ability to specify addresses as offsets from the instruction counter, making it possible to generate PIC without jumping through (costly) hoops
 
The use of segment is an alternative for some of the use, but then that's even more old fashionned.
 
@StackedCrooked What is it?
 
I'm not really seeing the benefit, though
sure, not having to load two copies into RAM would be nice, but in terms of the memory use of the system as a whole, I don't see that it's going to be a big deal
 
@DeadMG Sharing is mostly usefull for common libraries (standard libraries, graphic one, ...)
 
4:38 PM
if I'm playing a game which has 1.8GB allocated, saving 20MB for not having to load the CRT twice between that and BitTorrent isn't going to be a big deal
 
@jalf They added relative addressing for a few specific instructions/situations where x86 only supported absolute addressing. In all honesty, I think a lot of the real motivation was to keep code from expanding massively with 8-byte addresses everywhere.
 
@JerryCoffin ah ok
 
not to mention that the only libraries you could even think about sharing would be those that can support a C-style interface
good luck sharing std::vector
 
Which is something that sucks about C++.
:(
 
it's great
it's nice and fast, you only have to distribute what you use, etc
the problem with C++ is that you can't distribute libraries that way for non-trivial libraries, because the compilation system is horrendous
 
4:41 PM
@DeadMG It's next to impossible when you're dealing with templates that work atthe source code leve.
 
@DeadMG I'm pretty sure that on a KDE desktop, sharing KDE libraries is possible and probably helpfull.
 
@DeadMG That was kind of the intent of export, but it never worked out. Modules may work out better, but we'll have to see if somebody can come up with a definition that works out (though I think something like concepts will help in that regard.
 
"DeadMG++" can totally do that
ahem, if I finish implementing it, it can do that :P
 
@DeadMG Yes, a working implementation does tend to help!
Realistically, any more, just a working implementation of the language isn't enough though. You need a tool chain that all works together nicely.
 
@JerryCoffin IMO that's where the trouble usually starts. Everything is much easier before you have a working implementation
 
4:49 PM
It also gets somewhat easier when you have a working implementation.
 
@jalf Yup. Since I'm apparently on a quoting spree today, "The paper tiger always beats the real one." (Brooks).
4
The next point that things get a lot tougher again is when you've used the language for a while, and want to improve it without breaking backward compatibility.
 
but that's easily solved by making it perfect the first time around
 
Oh, sure.
But then you never get a working implementation.
 
honestly? tool chain doesn't bother me tooooo much
I'm hoping to steal the Visual Studio debugger and such
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Hurd anyone?
 
5:04 PM
/*
 * If the new process paused because it was
 * swapped out, set the stack level to the last call
 * to savu(u_ssav).  This means that the return
 * which is executed immediately after the call to aretu
 * actually returns from the last routine which did
 * the savu.
 *
 * You are not expected to understand this.
 */
 
I was trying to write a parser (for my learning) but I started getting in over my head real quick! I can see how improvements to a new language would be enough to drive anyone insane.
 
@JohnKaul That's what parser generators are for.
 
I use bison
 
writing your own parser by hand is not particularly common, unless you have already completed a grammar in a generator and discovered that the generated parser isn't fast enough
 
but I think I do it myself next time I need to write one
 
5:06 PM
working in bison myself right now
 
I used Yacc last time I needed a parser generator
 
clang and gcc do pretty well with hand written parsers :)
but I use the bison C mode.
 
C++ is a bit of a different beast
 
i should have used the C++ mode, I suspect.
but I wanted to have a stable tested interface. the c++ support looked too fancy
 
the public versions of Bison don't provide a mode where you can use complex C++ types
but I've got a dev version and it's working out really nice
 
5:08 PM
you mean the SVN/CVS version supports real classes?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes it inserts ratings into anime Wikipedia pages
 
I don't know about SVN/CVS, I emailed bison-help and they sent me a link
I'll send you the link if you want
but my version is definitely supporting proper classes
 
oh
official bison can only use pointers to c++ classes in the union
 
Ah, @DeadMG using a VCS. What a joke.
 
yeah
@RMartinhoFernandes Hey, I just re-installed Mercurial, I'll have you know
I mean literally, I just remembered to re-install it on my university machine
 
5:10 PM
can u please send the link :(
 
@DeadMG Ok, I'll shut up, then.
 
oh thanks
hm my archlinux has bison 2.5 installed
so it seems newer
 
@DeadMG we're proud of you! ;)
 
5:11 PM
I checked, the 2.5 bison doesn't support variant
the email I got suggested basically that it was a development version planned for 2.6
 
ohh i see
that's definitely interesting
 
yes
in my parser right now, I'm using the proper C++ class support and it's sweet
 
is it a reentrant one?
 
the C++ parser always was re-entrant
 
Als
I feel sick :(
 
5:13 PM
the design could use a little improvement, but it's very definitely re-entrant
 
i'm using the global one. where it stores yylval and such in global variables
 
@Als Welcome to the club
 
it sucks :)
 
apparently, the C skeleton can generate re-entrant parsers
but the C++ skeleton is always re-entrant
 
Yes, it can.
 
5:14 PM
ohh neat
 
you can pass arbitrary parameters to the constructor
 
%define api.pure
 
and then pass them again into yylex()
and use them in your actions
 
AFAIR.
 
Als
@DeadMG: Yeah, Dunno I suddenly feel sick...Good its weekend I need rest.
 
5:15 PM
it needs to work with flex too :(
 
Flex can generate C++ lexers
and there's no reason that Bison won't work with flex
hell, all the examples use Flex lexers
 
remember- you can pass arbitrary parameters to yylex() and there's no global variables involved
so the lexer is completely encapsulated
I wrote my own custom lexer
just passed a reference to it into yylex()
 
if i would have time I would change to reentrant mode and c++ modes
 
well, I would definitely advise using the link I posted
 
5:17 PM
ohh
 
cause having real support is very useful when it comes to recursive rules, like compound statements
much less complex when you can just make that rule be a vector of statements
 
the good is that you can avoid using new / delete I suspect
 
well, not really, cause where are you gonna put your AST if not on the heap?
but certainly not for the intermediate values
 
tho one can always use placement new from a static buffer even with the pointer-in-union case.
@DeadMG it could be a boost::variant
 
true
 
5:19 PM
with all the node types as the variant template arguments
 
I personally used inheritance though
way too many node types to use a variant
for a non-trivial language, anyway
 
and if I ever have reason to, I will use a memory arena to speed things up
 
yeah then you don't have to worry about tracking the pointer for freeing anymore. i use reference counting for that with an intrusive_ptr. but if one uses a memory area one cna just use naked pointers and after one doesn't need the ast anymore just throw away the area
 
I don't use any kind of reference counted pointer anyway
the lifetime of the ast is tied to the lifetime of the ParsedFile
I just add a pointer in a vector of unique_ptr on creation and destroy them all when the parser goes
the arena would be just for speed
 
5:27 PM
ohh i see
 
hi friends
 
Hola.
 
5:36 PM
Salut
 
namaste
its hello in my native language
 
isn't that japanese?
 
its hello in my native language
 
what is your native language?
 
@JitendraPathak And what is your native language?
 
5:39 PM
"hindi"
i am indian
 
there's verbal and non-verbal communication. but which one is coughing?
 
@DeadMG: yes, true but that wouldn't help me learn.
I also try to avoid using an IDE too (for now). I use Vim and a makefile when i can. The only IDE i use is Qt Creator i guess.
 
if you throw a dice you have one chance out of six to throw a six, what's the chance of throwing a six if you are allowed two attempts?
 
16 %?
 
how is not using an IDE going to help you?
 
5:44 PM
It's 1/6 each time.
 
if you get a job programming, then they will provide an IDE
using Vim and a makefile is arbitrarily limiting yourself in favour of nothing
 
Whether that was 1/6 + 1/6 or 1/6 * 1/6 I can't recall. :P
 
1/6*1/6 is 6 twice in a row
 
it's a binomial coefficient
 
0
A: How to unit test a virtual method on an abstract class?

XaadeUltimately, you should question why the base class needs to implement a new default implementation. Maybe you should be delegating? Why are you modifying behavior that impacts all classes? But if you must modify behavior that all children should inherit... Combine 1 and 2. Test using a dummy as...

 
5:45 PM
can't recall the exact probability offhand
but I'd expect 2C6 or something like that
 
The attempts are immaterial
Your chance is the same whether you roll it twice or 50 times
 
It's 1/6 + 5/6*1/6.
 
I know that this kinda stuff isnt "done" in the trade but I figure i can learn more this way i guess (I understand that almost everything i write now is just throw-away code/projects).
 
no
 
Well, that's it, I won't get any votes..... Someone with cosmic rep answered.
 
5:46 PM
the chance of getting a six on each individual roll remains the same
 
@DeadMG how so?
oh
 
but the chance of getting at least one six increases
 
@RMartinhoFernandes not (1/6 + 1/6) * 5/6 ?
 
No
 
@CodeMonkey Not.
 
5:47 PM
1/6 * 5/6 is 100% chance
right?
 
no
 
@CodeMonkey No.
 
no
 
What you're saying is the chance of the second roll delivering a six, is the chance that it would impacted by the chance that the first roll DIDN'T deliver a six.
 
it is about a .138 chance
 
5:48 PM
1/6 * 5/6 = 5/36
 
It's 5/36.
 
@CodeMonkey you were very close the first time.
You said 30.5%
 
Woo, we can count!
 
It's 30.55555555555555... %
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Oh so I was right the first time
I kept doubting my self
 
5:49 PM
@DeadMG That's the chance that the second roll is a six.
The chance that either is a six is 1/6 + 5/36.
 
@Xaade yes, 11/36
 
It's easier to figure that there is no six.
 
9 attempts is 80.62
 
5/6 * 5/6 = 25/36
1 - 25/36 = 11/36
 
@Xaade that's the chances of NOT rolling a six (your first one)
 
5:51 PM
I know
 
I never liked probability theory.
 
@CodeMonkey That's why he subtracted that from 1.
 
It's easier to figure out what's the chance of not not rolling a six
not = 1 - x
 
Too many "nots".
 
Math is easier, english statement is not.
 
5:52 PM
chances of NOT rolling a dice if rolled 9 times is 19.38
 
What's the chance of not not not not not not not getting that right.
 
@CatPlusPlus 27.91
 
[1 - 5/6*5/6] vs [1/6 + 5/6*1/6]
It becomes easier to see why when you increase rolls.
 
If you like playing with dices there's anydice.com
 
@CodeMonkey chances of NOT rolling a dice if rolled 9 times is 0.
 
5:53 PM
That's not true
 
@RMartinhoFernandes see here - edcollins.com/backgammon/diceprob.htm
 
that's completely true
 
The chance of not rolling a dice if you attempt to roll 9 times is NULL.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Unless somebody steals it, then a chance is 0 afterwards.
 
if you roll a dice 9 times, it's impossible for you to have not rolled a dice
 
5:54 PM
Not true
 
@DeadMG: RE: Vim/Make I just figured that without an IDE i would have to actually type/remember that i need "virtual here" and "std::... there" what-not. Just trying to get the closeup understanding; I didn't want to get to a job and have to ask what or how to create a class with this IDE.
 
0 chance doesn't imply it's impossible.
 
no, you don't have to roll the same dice
just roll 9 times
 
Your statement is invalid, which means there is no chance. Which means your question is (in coding terms) UB.
 
like in Axis and Allies, there is more than one dice
 
5:55 PM
0 != NO-Chance
 
or yahtzee, there is what ? 6?
 
UB in maths.
 
@Xaade correct
 
What's the chance of landing at a particular degree on a circle if a line is spun with its tail at the center.
0
That doesn't mean it cannot happen.
You can land on exactly 36deg.
 
36?
 
5:56 PM
When I was in highschool I spend ages trying to solve this dice puzzle. The trick is to solve the inverse problem.
 
It's 1/360!
Joking.
 
But, if you take the chance as the line moves considering real numbers are not 1-1 mappable to integers.
 
@StackedCrooked didn't get out much? :)
 
There is 0 chance of landing on a particular degree.
 
@CodeMonkey Not really, how did you know? :)
 
5:57 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes if the device was designed to only stop on 1deg positions.
 
It's 1/2π!
 
There is zero chance there is life in the universe.
 
Its 1/400!
 
@Xaade Drake Equation
 
Als
5:58 PM
@Xaade: Don't tell that to NASA
 
SETI is broke
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Not true, because there are infinite positions between 0 and 2pi.
@Als I mean, considering the variables, there is zero chance of earth existing with the same parameters in the universe.
 
@Xaade Not if you consider a discrete system where each step is of say, size π.
 

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